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  • How Many Days to Condition in BBT After Carbonation?

    Good morning everyone. Looking for input from everyone to see what their process is for conditioning their beer after carbonation. I'm still in start-up phase, so I brew on 1BBL pilot system and carbonate in 5gal corny kegs using a 0.5micron stone at the end of a tube that sits inside the corny, which is connected to a gas-IN port sanitary welded to the middle of the corny lid. For most beers I carbonate by means of pushing C02 through stone as follows:

    For a beer I want carbed to 2.2 vols: 8PSI (target carb level) + 4PSI (wetting pressure) + 1PSI (height of corny) = 13PSI. I will let it sit on the stone, shaking the keg a few times through-out 3 days. Then I will switch it to head pressure by connecting C02 to the actual gas-IN port of the keg, and leave it at 8PSI until I serve it.

    Now, what I have noticed is that if I try and drink the beer the day after carbonation, it has a overly "spritsy" mouth-feel and carbonic acid bite, along with slightly reduced flavor/aroma. Give it three days sitting on head pressure, and it tastes great. Does everyone else experience this? Or do you think its due to a flaw or necessity of my small pilot style system?

    Thanks and cheers!
    Ryan
    Viridian Brewing Company
    [Brewery-In-Planning]

  • #2
    First of all, we need the temperature of the beer when carbing. Volumes of CO2 are pressure/temperature dependent. Then in order to carb correctly, you have to first apply head pressure, once that is established, you start running CO2 through your carbing stone slowly till pressure equilibrium!!
    Forget about shaking, that works ok for corny kegs, but it starts to get tricky when you want to do it with 1bbl and higher brites, unless you can hire Hulk or Iron Man!!! It will usually take a couple of hours to carb, you will need to adjust the flow rate of the CO2 infeed to the carb stone to make it a slow process!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    • #3
      Originally posted by forrestmz3005 View Post
      First of all, we need the temperature of the beer when carbing. Volumes of CO2 are pressure/temperature dependent. Then in order to carb correctly, you have to first apply head pressure, once that is established, you start running CO2 through your carbing stone slowly till pressure equilibrium!!
      Forget about shaking, that works ok for corny kegs, but it starts to get tricky when you want to do it with 1bbl and higher brites, unless you can hire Hulk or Iron Man!!! It will usually take a couple of hours to carb, you will need to adjust the flow rate of the CO2 infeed to the carb stone to make it a slow process!!


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

      The temperature of the keezer is regulated to 38 deg F. To achieve 2.1-2.2 vols Co2, that yields a carbonation goal of 8PSI.

      I have not been applying head pressure to the kegs while pushing in c02 to carbonate. Is this essential to ensure carbonation occurs properly on such a small vessel?
      Ryan
      Viridian Brewing Company
      [Brewery-In-Planning]

      Comment


      • #4
        FYI, most American craft beers in the US are carbonated and dispensed at 2.48-2.64 volumes of CO2. You can certainly get away with that level of carb at your own pub, but any draft account that you sell beer to will consider the product undercarbonated, and likely experience issues with serving it. Is there a reason you're targeting such a low carbonation level?

        More to the point of your question, in my experience, practices regarding carbonation vary quite a bit at different breweries. There are definitely people who swear by "conditioning" the carbonation in the brite, but (again, in my experience), most places don't have the luxury to let a tank sit for more than a day or two after carbonation. It's not uncommon to transfer to brite, carbonate (perhaps even in-line), and pack that beer all in the same day, and maybe even get another batch pushed in. Of course, if you're dealing with serving tanks, then the beer is going to sit the whole time it's being served.

        As to what you're experiencing with carbonic bite, it shouldn't be an issue at a low carb rate of 2.1-2.2, so I'd wager that you're actually up around 2.68+ Carb stones in small tanks like a 5 gallon keg can dissolve a whole lot of gas, especially if you're using the shake method. You can't solely go by calculations for carbonation, it has to be measured as with a Zahm or Gehaltemeter. Consider putting a gauge on the gas in fitting to see how much gas you're actually putting into the vessel. I think your calculation of applied pressure is off by a bit. The height of the keg shouldn't be a meaningful level of resistance. Did you measure the wetting pressure of the stone, or is that just an assumption?

        At 38F, 13PSI would result in a carb of 2.61 volumes of CO2. You might not be getting every last bit of that gas dissolved, but you're probably getting a fair amount. Also, verify that the pressure gauge you're measuring PSI output with is actually accurate. A gauge on a regulator is not the same thing as a flow meter (such as a rotameter).

        Good luck, hope that helps.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mibrewers View Post
          FYI, most American craft beers in the US are carbonated and dispensed at 2.48-2.64 volumes of CO2.

          More to the point of your question, in my experience, practices regarding carbonation vary quite a bit at different breweries. There are definitely people who swear by "conditioning" the carbonation in the brite, but (again, in my experience), most places don't have the luxury to let a tank sit for more than a day or two after carbonation. It's not uncommon to transfer to brite, carbonate (perhaps even in-line), and pack that beer all in the same day, and maybe even get another batch pushed in. Of course, if you're dealing with serving tanks, then the beer is going to sit the whole time it's being served.

          You can't solely go by calculations for carbonation, it has to be measured as with a Zahm or Gehaltemeter. Consider putting a gauge on the gas in fitting to see how much gas you're actually putting into the vessel.

          At 38F, 13PSI would result in a carb of 2.61 volumes of CO2. You might not be getting every last bit of that gas dissolved, but you're probably getting a fair amount. Also, verify that the pressure gauge you're measuring PSI output with is actually accurate. A gauge on a regulator is not the same thing as a flow meter (such as a rotameter).
          I agree with these points. Hardly ever have enough time to effectively "condition" in the brite, but I always try to have at least overnight to make sure it is equilibrated throughout the batch and "settled". When spunding, there have been times when I transferred and packaged in the same day, tends to foam slightly. Sometimes spunding (in my experience) can cause very slight stratification in the tank, depending on the size. I did not find this to be the case with use of the carb stone.

          I would also suggest that typically you need yeast present to actually condition. True conditioning would involve everything from uptake of diacetyl to precipitation of polyphenols and proteins and even late formation of esters, and should be done prior to carbonation (think lagering, although shorter for ales). Once the yeast is removed (crashed, filtered, centrifuged), you are basically just aging the beer. A few days or a week in the brite shouldn't hurt anything provided you have good techniques for sanitation and o2 pickup.

          I like a gauge setup with a rotometer after (and a check valve). The pressure can be set to feed the rotometer constantly, and the flow rate can be set and timed to get a fairly accurate dose of carbon dioxide. Say you have 10 liters beer. Add co2 at a rate of 2 liters per minute for 15 mins and you will have 2.5 volumes of gas. Of course this would only work in a perfect situation with a completely full tank, complete dissolution and so forth, but you can get the general idea.

          Comment


          • #6
            Also, Taprite is a good cheaper alternative to the Zahm & Nagel. I have used both on the same batch at the same time (multiple times) and found VERY similar results between the two when used properly.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mibrewers View Post
              FYI, most American craft beers in the US are carbonated and dispensed at 2.48-2.64 volumes of CO2. You can certainly get away with that level of carb at your own pub, but any draft account that you sell beer to will consider the product undercarbonated, and likely experience issues with serving it. Is there a reason you're targeting such a low carbonation level?

              More to the point of your question, in my experience, practices regarding carbonation vary quite a bit at different breweries. There are definitely people who swear by "conditioning" the carbonation in the brite, but (again, in my experience), most places don't have the luxury to let a tank sit for more than a day or two after carbonation. It's not uncommon to transfer to brite, carbonate (perhaps even in-line), and pack that beer all in the same day, and maybe even get another batch pushed in. Of course, if you're dealing with serving tanks, then the beer is going to sit the whole time it's being served.

              As to what you're experiencing with carbonic bite, it shouldn't be an issue at a low carb rate of 2.1-2.2, so I'd wager that you're actually up around 2.68+ Carb stones in small tanks like a 5 gallon keg can dissolve a whole lot of gas, especially if you're using the shake method. You can't solely go by calculations for carbonation, it has to be measured as with a Zahm or Gehaltemeter. Consider putting a gauge on the gas in fitting to see how much gas you're actually putting into the vessel. I think your calculation of applied pressure is off by a bit. The height of the keg shouldn't be a meaningful level of resistance. Did you measure the wetting pressure of the stone, or is that just an assumption?

              At 38F, 13PSI would result in a carb of 2.61 volumes of CO2. You might not be getting every last bit of that gas dissolved, but you're probably getting a fair amount. Also, verify that the pressure gauge you're measuring PSI output with is actually accurate. A gauge on a regulator is not the same thing as a flow meter (such as a rotameter).

              Good luck, hope that helps.

              The carbonation level that I mentioned is what I use for imperial stouts and North-East IPAs. I am not concerned with draft accounts, as I will be serving the beer and selling the beer from my own tap-house.

              The wetting pressure of each stone is tested before being used for carbonation. I connect the stone to tubing fed from same regulator that is used to carbonate, drop the stone in a small container of sanitizer water, then I slowly increase the pressure until there is a full column of gas beads bleeding across the entire length of the stone. The 1 PSI for the height of the keg is per convention as I understand it, and has been referenced in many texts (1 PSI per 18" height) - so are you saying that convention isn't correct?

              I will look into getting a rotameter, I have been interested in that idea for a while now. However, based on mouth-feel and appearance of the beer, I have to say that it seems as if I am getting roughly 2.0--2.2 vols of C02 successfully. However, like I had originally said - it just seems like there is a bit more of a bite to it for the first few days after carbonation - and then it settles down and tastes great.
              Ryan
              Viridian Brewing Company
              [Brewery-In-Planning]

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by UnFermentable View Post
                I agree with these points. Hardly ever have enough time to effectively "condition" in the brite, but I always try to have at least overnight to make sure it is equilibrated throughout the batch and "settled". When spunding, there have been times when I transferred and packaged in the same day, tends to foam slightly. Sometimes spunding (in my experience) can cause very slight stratification in the tank, depending on the size. I did not find this to be the case with use of the carb stone.

                I would also suggest that typically you need yeast present to actually condition. True conditioning would involve everything from uptake of diacetyl to precipitation of polyphenols and proteins and even late formation of esters, and should be done prior to carbonation (think lagering, although shorter for ales). Once the yeast is removed (crashed, filtered, centrifuged), you are basically just aging the beer. A few days or a week in the brite shouldn't hurt anything provided you have good techniques for sanitation and o2 pickup.

                I like a gauge setup with a rotometer after (and a check valve). The pressure can be set to feed the rotometer constantly, and the flow rate can be set and timed to get a fairly accurate dose of carbon dioxide. Say you have 10 liters beer. Add co2 at a rate of 2 liters per minute for 15 mins and you will have 2.5 volumes of gas. Of course this would only work in a perfect situation with a completely full tank, complete dissolution and so forth, but you can get the general idea.
                That is an interesting idea - I will look into a rotameter. I still am wondering why the beer always tastes rather spritsy the first day, and then settles down and tastes great a few days later.
                Ryan
                Viridian Brewing Company
                [Brewery-In-Planning]

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have heard 24 hours post carb conditioning time from some small-medium-sized breweries making excellent hazy IPA. Although I think their rationale has to do with allowing sediment to settle before transferring to package.

                  Any change in carbonation after a conditioning period would be related to the head pressure in the vessel, and to what degree the liquid was saturated with CO2 during the carbonation phase.

                  I'm not sure about sprityness, but thinking about the original post, you mention the beer having a bite and reduced aroma. We find with our [unfiltered] hoppy stuff that they tend to have a lot of astringency and green-ness, and muddled aroma early on, like immediately after kegging, and tend to really bloom around 1-3 weeks. So I would wonder if the subdued qualities you describe could be something beyond carbonation?

                  I'm sure you realize, but conditioning time will ultimately be a matter for you to determine [primarily] by sensory according to the equipment you get stuck with.

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