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  • Beer transfer

    Does anyone use pressure differential to transfer beer. Say 7psi on fermenter and 2 on the bright. If not why? I assuming it's slow but I thought I would ask. It would eliminate all but brewhouse pumps.

  • #2
    Slow and a waste of CO2. And what do you do CIP with? Might as well use that transfer pump for that too. Having the extra pump for transfers also means that if one of the brewhouse pumps goes down, you have something to plumb in real quick to get you through the day.

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    • #3
      Brewhouse pumps? No. It could eliminate a transfer pump. You have to add co2 to the source tank and bleed off pressure from the destination tank or you will just reach an equalization point. Works fine as long as there in no resistance, say like a filter.
      Joel Halbleib
      Partner / Zymurgist
      Hive and Barrel Meadery
      6302 Old La Grange Rd
      Crestwood, KY
      www.hiveandbarrel.com

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      • #4
        yeah doing it that way is like treating your bright tank like a huge keg. As stated, it's a huge waste of CO2 plus you're going to need a pump and two hoses to sanitize your bright tank and CIP your fermenter before and after the transfer, respectively, anyway...

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        • #5
          You gain nothing by using CO2....

          Most people wouldn't be able to use pressure. Fermenters are typically spunded at the end of fermentation and allowed to pressurize to 1 bar. This to increase natural carbonation. Most tanks are not rated to pressures above 1 bar, so unless you use a pump and a balance line you cannot transfer quickly, safely, and easily.
          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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          • #6
            Well I am the odd ball here as that is exactly what I do, I know it does waste CO2 but I have never completely filled my Brite tanks till CO2 runs out anyway. I usually flush my brite out until I get about 3' or so of CO2 in it then pressurize it to about 5PSI then let it sit, the natural weight of CO2 means it puts a nice layer of CO2 so no air contacts my beer on a slow fill so I am usually pushing out air on the transfer. I will pressurize the ferm till I get about 14 PSI then, flush my line connect to the brite tank and start a slow transfer. If I had my choice I would use a pump with a VFO so I could slow the pump down vs the high speed CIP pump as it can cavitate or just beat the beer around due to the high speed. Now, I am sure I will get grief for this but I have done it this way for over 15 years with no problems again, a transfer pump would be great but at around $2400 thats some cash and I chose to put it into other equipment. So, yes you can do that but as others say it does waste some CO2
            Mike Eme
            Brewmaster

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            • #7
              CO2 blanket is a myth in this context. Sure it is better than nothing, but certainly the gases mix from the turbulence of just filling the tank.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by pemerson View Post
                CO2 blanket is a myth in this context. Sure it is better than nothing, but certainly the gases mix from the turbulence of just filling the tank.
                Well perhaps but 15 years of success has worked well in my case. Like I said its not the best way but for now its the way I have to move it without a VFO pump.
                Mike Eme
                Brewmaster

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by pemerson View Post
                  CO2 blanket is a myth in this context. Sure it is better than nothing, but certainly the gases mix from the turbulence of just filling the tank.
                  This statement is a myth.

                  If you transfer slowly at the beginning, there is little to no turbulence during the transfer process. I know first hand as I have used grundy tanks with viewports and been able to watch the entire transfer process a hundred times or more. Start slowly, as soon as you have around 6 inches of liquid in the brite, you can increase the rate of flow significantly without hardly any surface movement. There will be slight movement on the surface, but no agitation, foaming or mixing of the gas and liquid. Even if there was slight agitation, with a decent amount of co2 in the brite, it will still form a significant layer on top which will provide protection from oxygen. Unless you are shooting a fountain into your brite a 6 inch layer of co2 is going to be more than sufficient (of course provided you are only leaving 6 inches or less headspace when done). I did have a bit less differential pressure than the OP's question, but maybe 5 in the brite, and a saturation of around 11 in the ferm (usually measured 2.65-2.75 vols). Start the transfer, get the 6 inches or so, bring up top pressure to 15 as you increase the flow (open the valve up the rest of the way), let it equilibrate pressures, then slowly bleed off the brite to control flow.

                  Now I would certainly agree that this can use a decent amount of gas, and I always prefer to purge my brite tank fully first. I used this method for 7bbl and a few times on 15bbl without any issues whatsoever. I don't remember exactly what times it would take, but it was certainly not very long. Perhaps an hour or so for a 15bbl, and that is when I was handling other tasks. Just like filling a keg with little to no foam the key is a very slow start, but then you can move 10-15 GPM (1.5" hose) just fine. I might see a small floating foam ring around the size of a medium pizza by the time I was done transferring. Due to co2 coming out of solution during transfer, flat beer would have had none.

                  A pump provides its own risks so it is not a particularly better method. If you don't have a VFD you run the risk of shearing your beer. Also, you are increasing the number of connection points where there is opportunity for DO pickup. I have seen loose tri-clamps lead to DO pick up, as well as a particular pump (probably due to the viton seal point). Pumps are great but don't be fooled into thinking they are automatically better. I would prefer co2 transfer every time if I had the means to capture and re-use the gas, and if my tanks were small enough to keep pressure levels reasonable.

                  Both methods have validity to be sure. If used properly, either one can be quite effective.

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                  • #10
                    I prefer to push my beer with CO2, and only use a pump when filtering. Yes it blows through CO2, but as Unfermentable pointed out it means less potential of DO pickup and shearing.

                    To be certain of a good purge I pressurize my brite tank to 15psi and blow it down, I repeat this 2 additional times then bring it back to about 5psi and let it sit until xfering in. I then vent the brite and then push the beer over with CO2.

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                    • #11
                      Testing D.O.?

                      When reading this thread, I see a lot of what looks like speculation about DO pickup with different methods of transfer.

                      Is anyone actually testing for it?

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                      • #12
                        Love to see someone with a DO meter chime in on their test results of the CO2 blanket theory. Been hearing how heavy CO2 is for years, maybe read an abstract on it. Anyone?Bueller!
                        Joel Halbleib
                        Partner / Zymurgist
                        Hive and Barrel Meadery
                        6302 Old La Grange Rd
                        Crestwood, KY
                        www.hiveandbarrel.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wailingguitar View Post
                          I prefer to push my beer with CO2, and only use a pump when filtering. Yes it blows through CO2, but as Unfermentable pointed out it means less potential of DO pickup and shearing.

                          To be certain of a good purge I pressurize my brite tank to 15psi and blow it down, I repeat this 2 additional times then bring it back to about 5psi and let it sit until xfering in. I then vent the brite and then push the beer over with CO2.
                          This is my process as well and like the way it works.

                          Cheers,
                          --
                          Don
                          Idyllwild Brewpub

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BrewinLou View Post
                            Love to see someone with a DO meter chime in on their test results of the CO2 blanket theory. Been hearing how heavy CO2 is for years, maybe read an abstract on it. Anyone?Bueller!
                            I used The Beverly and that is how I determined DO pickup from both a loose Tri-Clamp and a bad pump seal. I don't remember the numbers, but it was obvious when I tightened the clamp and the level dropped. Same when I switched pumps. It might have been the Orbisphere, but I'm pretty sure it was a Bev.

                            Some breweries use a slow purge method which in essence is the same as a blanket. They can attach a DO meter to the CIP arm and slowly fill with co2 until the DO meter reads their desired threshold. I tested this theory when trialing a Bev back a few years ago.

                            Like I said, I like to fully purge just like WailingGuitar suggests, so I don't have hard numbers on a blanket transfer but if you want to actually see (vs hear) how co2 is heavier than o2 just find a vessel with a viewport. You can literally see the blanket of co2 if done slowly. Or open a can of cold soda. You can see the layer of co2 in the can right after you open it. Or open an empty Ferm and watch the co2 fall to the ground. It is in fact, a fact. A carbon molecule attached to two oxygen molecules is heavier than two oxygen molecules. Add the atomic weight from the periodic table for confirmation.

                            Your technique is the key behind either method. If done right, you should not see a difference between the two methods in DO pickup. I believe that is the real point behind this original post.

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