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Thread: Kettle sours

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    UK
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    Kettle sours

    Hi all,

    Hope I'm posting this in the right area...so, we have been doing a fair few kettle sours over the last few months. We use Lactobacillus Plantarum for souring and has also used Brevis and Buchneri in the past. When the souring is taking place, I always get a strong tomato sauce/tinned baked beans/tinned spaghetti aroma. This aroma does seem do boil off fairly well, but I do perceive it still in the final product. It does seem to be a DMS related sulphur?

    Is this normal for a kettle sour, or does any of you get a cleaner aroma during the souring process?

    Cheers

  2. #2
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    May 2016
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    Denver, CO
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    Does anyone else detect this? I have a tendency to detect exactly what you were describing in kettle sours in the kettle and sometimes in the finished product. I also get it in nearly any sour that has "fall" spices… I have been in sensory panels where I would swear it smells exactly like a bottle of ketchup and 20 other people get nothing.

  3. #3
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    Sep 2016
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    Plainwell, MI, USA
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    The only beer I've ever really gotten "tomato soup" from (strongly) is Bayrischer Bahnhoff's Leipziger Gose. I've experienced it to a lesser extent in some other Gose beers, but the salt content in that beer is much higher than a lot of American examples. I think maybe it has something to do with the souring process and the salt interaction.

    ****Now that I'm writing this, I can taste it a little in my Seamonster Pale Ale that I currently have on draft (now that I try it again, looking for it). It is a pale ale brewed with seaweed and sea salt. Not at all sour, but salted.

    Maybe it has something to do with salts in your water? Do you adjust your water chemistry at all? Do you have a water report? I am not up on my brewing chemistry, but the professional chef in me knows that salt and umami and sour feed back on each other, so maybe this interaction is bringing out the savory flavors you are experiencing.

  4. #4
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    UK
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    We only add salt after the souring process. I dont have a water report and dont add allot of brew salts to this mash.

    Cheers for the input!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Atlanta GA USA
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    1

    harvesting lacto after achieving ph

    Hey guys,

    I've done a few berliners on my homebrew system which I just let the lacto on the grain do the souring, but now my bosses would like me to ramp a recipe up for production. I don't want to leave it to chance so once I've got my lacto strain how do I harvest the bacteria from the kettle, after the souring process, to use in the next batch? can you reuse the bacteria? will the bacteria floc like sacchro once it hits a certain ph? how many generations is it stable for?

    Cheers,
    David Fuhrer

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    3

    Kette sour technique

    I've been brewing 10 bbl kettle sours for the past few years without any issue using probiotics. I know what you're talking about Gbbc, with the tomato sauce thing, but it is subtle in the kettle and then boils off completely before casting. I don't know what you've got in your area for probiotic brands, but I find around 1.5L of yogurt style probiotics (biok) gets me to pH 3.6 within 36 hours. I first put in around 350g citric to bring the pH down to 4.6 before the souring process. CO2 bubble through the entire time, slowly, at around 46 deg C.

    As for re-pitching, I will if I'm doing a double batch, after the first kettle sour is done I will whirlpool in the kettle to collect the bacteria and then collect it in a sanitized 58L keg, and repitch it that day into the second brew. This decreases the souring time to 24 hours.

    Hope this helps!

    Siobhan

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Huntington Beach, CA
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    98
    Quote Originally Posted by Dfuhrer View Post
    Hey guys,

    I've done a few berliners on my homebrew system which I just let the lacto on the grain do the souring, but now my bosses would like me to ramp a recipe up for production. I don't want to leave it to chance so once I've got my lacto strain how do I harvest the bacteria from the kettle, after the souring process, to use in the next batch? can you reuse the bacteria? will the bacteria floc like sacchro once it hits a certain ph? how many generations is it stable for?

    Cheers,
    David Fuhrer
    Just pull out wort from the bottom of the kettle, it doesn't really floc. I just fill up a 5 gallon corny, throw it in the walk in til ready to use again. Usually go 6 or so generations then replace with a new one. Have let it sit in the walk-in for 3 weeks or so without any negative affects.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    United States
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    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Siobhan View Post
    I've been brewing 10 bbl kettle sours for the past few years without any issue using probiotics. I know what you're talking about Gbbc, with the tomato sauce thing, but it is subtle in the kettle and then boils off completely before casting. I don't know what you've got in your area for probiotic brands, but I find around 1.5L of yogurt style probiotics (biok) gets me to pH 3.6 within 36 hours. I first put in around 350g citric to bring the pH down to 4.6 before the souring process. CO2 bubble through the entire time, slowly, at around 46 deg C.

    As for re-pitching, I will if I'm doing a double batch, after the first kettle sour is done I will whirlpool in the kettle to collect the bacteria and then collect it in a sanitized 58L keg, and repitch it that day into the second brew. This decreases the souring time to 24 hours.

    Hope this helps!

    Siobhan
    Out of curiosity, for double batches, have you ever considered letting the first batch sour to a lower pH (3.1-3.3) and then blending with a non-soured second batch to achieve the same overall acidity?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonBrews View Post
    Out of curiosity, for double batches, have you ever considered letting the first batch sour to a lower pH (3.1-3.3) and then blending with a non-soured second batch to achieve the same overall acidity?
    For double brews we sour for 36 hours down to pH 3.2 for the first turn and do a normal wort for the second turn. Fermented batch is in the pH 3.4-3.6, which is plenty sour for us. We just fill a 50L keg with the unboiled soured wort and repitch the next time we do a kettle sour.

    Cheers

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonBrews View Post
    Out of curiosity, for double batches, have you ever considered letting the first batch sour to a lower pH (3.1-3.3) and then blending with a non-soured second batch to achieve the same overall acidity?
    I have planned on it, but become nervous as the wort started to go extra canned-tomato and other weird unpleasant smells. I like the complex profile I get from the probiotics, so I decided to just play it safe. Some day I may get up the nerve (or time constraints will force me) to go extra sour on the first batch and blend in regular wort.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gbbc View Post
    For double brews we sour for 36 hours down to pH 3.2 for the first turn and do a normal wort for the second turn. Fermented batch is in the pH 3.4-3.6, which is plenty sour for us. We just fill a 50L keg with the unboiled soured wort and repitch the next time we do a kettle sour.

    Cheers
    Do you worry about your keg blowing up, even if it is refrigerated? How long have you left it for?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siobhan View Post
    Do you worry about your keg blowing up, even if it is refrigerated? How long have you left it for?
    The wort will only carbonate if there is brett or sacc in it, which there should not be. The amount of CO2 lactic acid produces is minimal.

    We have left a keg in the fridge for 4 weeks at a time

    Cheers

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