Question on canning/carbonation problem

[stutz]

Here's my deal...We finished canning a IPA and stored it at 65F. It was carbed up to 2.5 bar. When the cans are warm they open and pour fine. When they are chilled to 35F they want to foam over when we open them. The cans are filled to ~370 grams. There are no off flavors and nothing weird seems to be going on. Any ideas on what is causing this and more importantly, how to fix it?

[UnFermentable]

Do you mean you were carbed to 2.5 volumes? If you saturated gas to 2.5 bar, then you will be way over gassed and will have gushing for sure.

How did you measure carb? Do you have a means of testing the carb in package (can piercer, etc)? Have you actually measured product at 35*F, or is it possibly even colder?

Continued fermentation in package is a known problem, but usually does not occur when kept cold. You would also see the same results in your warm beer. I’d measure gravities to see if this is a possibility.

This seems highly unusual to me since co2 would be much more likely to dissolve at low temperature, however if you are freezing some of the water content it will not dissolve the gas and can cause gushing as a result. I would experiment and see what temperature you go from gushing to acceptable. There is nothing you can do (as far as I know) but serve the beer warmer once you are in the can.

[dick murton]

Assuming carbonation is bob on as explained, the only thing I can think of is a chill haze of some sort. I have seen horrendous oxalate hazes, heavy snowstorm and sediment - but have never come across this problem of gushing at low temperatures but not at high, so this shouldn't be taken as a statement of fact.

If you have cans that gush at low temperatures, but on warming up again, don't gush, then this supports the chill haze possibility.

If this is the case, then start looking at mashing / sparging liquor treatment, and everything onwards.

Is it just this batch, or just this particular brew style?

[stutz]

Do you mean you were carbed to 2.5 volumes? If you saturated gas to 2.5 bar, then you will be way over gassed and will have gushing for sure.

How did you measure carb? Do you have a means of testing the carb in package (can piercer, etc)? Have you actually measured product at 35*F, or is it possibly even colder?

Continued fermentation in package is a known problem, but usually does not occur when kept cold. You would also see the same results in your warm beer. I’d measure gravities to see if this is a possibility.

This seems highly unusual to me since co2 would be much more likely to dissolve at low temperature, however if you are freezing some of the water content it will not dissolve the gas and can cause gushing as a result. I would experiment and see what temperature you go from gushing to acceptable. There is nothing you do (as far as I know) but serve the beer warmer once you are in the can.

Yeah...I meant vols and typed bar. Fermentation was complete on this beer so I don't think it's a re-ferm problem. Our cooler is pretty steady at 35F. I'm sure there is some fluctuation as the compressor kicks on and off, but it has never frozen anything inside and no frozen condensation on the walls. It's just baffling me and a few guys I know around here. The beer pours clear into the glass. The can opens fine and about a second later I get about 3 oz of beer converted to foam.

[MikeyB]

Dry hopping effects on attenuation

Fermentation was complete on this beer so I don't think it's a re-ferm problem.

How/when was the beer dry-hopped? Dry hopping can cause additional attenuation over time. This was the topic of some discussion at the last CBC. Info from the relevant talk is posted at https://www.brewersassociation.org/p...hopping-beers/ (BA login required)

[stutz]

How/when was the beer dry-hopped? Dry hopping can cause additional attenuation over time. This was the topic of some discussion at the last CBC. Info from the relevant talk is posted at https://www.brewersassociation.org/p...hopping-beers/ (BA login required)

Dry hopped 4 days after terminal gravity was reached. I would think that would cause overcarbonation especially with warmer beer.

I'm glad beer is so simple and there are never any crazy unexplainable problems.

[Starcat]

Quick notes

All other factors aside....
Its best to put beer in the can at 35F.
370G is considered LOW FILL by our standard.
You need at least 385.
390-395 is optimum.

Star

[UnFermentable]

All other factors aside....
Its best to put beer in the can at 35F.
370G is considered LOW FILL by our standard.
You need at least 385.
390-395 is optimum.

Star

390-395 gm is overfill by objective measurement.

Water will weigh 1 gm per ml at 4*C which is its densest point (if I'm not mistaken). This means 355ml of water would weigh 355 grams. At a finishing Specific Gravity of 1.015, 355 ml of beer would weigh 360.325 gm (355 x 1.015). An average empty can weight (including lids and tabs) would be around 13-15 gm based on the ball, crown, and two international manufacturers I just weighed. That means a properly filled 355 ml can would weigh 375.325 gm total (at 1.015 FG). That would mean technically the 370 gm weight would be 1.4% low, and a 390 gm can would be about a 3.9% overfill. That means you are loosing close to one beer per case of packaged product due to overfill. If you were to run about 650 cases you would loose something like 25 cases of extra beer if my quick math serves me correct.

Further more I would challenge it is not even possible to fill 395 gm of an average gravity beer into a 355 ml can. I just filled a few (the four manufacturers) to the very top with water (including filling the rim on top of the lid) and I averaged 385 gm. It would take a FG of 1.0255 (6.4*P) to get close to 395 gm.

If you use shrink sleeved cans, you may see a different weight for your empty cans differing the results.

[TL Services]

Assuming the cans are marked with a contents volume, then check weighing is only there to assure your fill volumes are correct. As explained correctly above, this needs to be calculated using the gravity at the point of fill.

Standard headspace volume is ~5% of the total so a 500ml bottle would be around 25ml, a 355ml can would be ~14ml, etc.

As regards the original question, I would concur with dmurton.

[UnFermentable]

Assuming the cans are marked with a contents volume, then check weighing is only there to assure your fill volumes are correct. As explained correctly above, this needs to be calculated using the gravity at the point of fill.

Standard headspace volume is ~5% of the total so a 500ml bottle would be around 25ml, a 355ml can would be ~14ml, etc.

As regards the original question, I would concur with dmurton.

As far as I know, all products released to market will be required by law to mark a content (either volume or weight). Check weighing is the most accurate and assured method for evaluating volume calculations. In fact they use it when labeling graduations on science glass and other precision instruments.

While 25ml is in fact 5% of 500ml, 14ml is only 3.9% of 355ml. 5% would be 17.75ml. 5% of total can volume would be more around 19.25ml. Regardless, it is probably best to calculate your proper fill weight based on the beer you are filling, and not by the head space left behind.

Here is a link to some good information on calcium oxcalate, hydrophobins and gushing beer. Dick was probably closer when mentioning the oxcalate hazes.

http://www.erbsloeh.com/downloads/en/130128_Method%20for%20the%20treatment%20of%20the%20phenomenon%20gushing%20in%20beer%20and%20malt%20beverages.pdf

[TL Services]

I was simply including typical 5% headspace values for guidance in response to the post about under/over-filling, not as a way of measuring fill volumes.

Being UK-based I am not overly familiar with US standard can sizes, but the typical 5% headspace volume is fairly standard in most package sizes over here (although nitro 'widget' products are different due to the nature of the process, etc.)

As I said earlier, check weighing is only any use if the correct density is used otherwise the volume calculation is meaningless.