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  • 3 Vessel Brewhouse Configuration

    Hi everyone! Greetings from Istanbul, Turkey.

    We are Graf Craft Beers, a contract brewing company who brew their beers in various locations in Belgium. Now that we saw what pro brewing and the marketing of beer is all about, we are also planning on building a brewhouse. A 20hL (roughly 17bbl) system with three vessels.

    A friend of ours just installed a similar capacity brewhouse, also in Istanbul with (M+BK), (L), (W). He is saying that with this setup, he should be able to do 3 batches in 10.5 hours. The boil kettle will have rakes in it to make sure the thick mash is heated properly. What makes me uncomfortable with this design (some call it the German type) is that the mash tun will not be available for at least 2 hours. But the biggest advantage is that only one vessel will be heated, therefore the amount of money needed is less.

    The alternative is (M), (L), (BK+W). While this seems to be more popular in US, but here my concern is the efficiency of whirlpool working in a smaller diameter. A combined (BK+W) will not be able to provide that.

    The last is (M+L), (BK), (W). I am hesitant on this, since the mashing process is very important for us for our lagers - we might need step mashing processes later on. Maybe a design with heaters on (M+L) would solve the problem, but I haven't seen any so far.

    Any recommendations, especially from the ones who have experiences with similar 3-vessel equipments is highly appreciated.

    Best regards,
    Tarik.

  • #2
    No one seems to be having ideas on this

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    • #3
      My Setup

      Hello there, I am the Head Brewer for a new facility in America with a 3 vessel system. Mine is a 25 HL system which I double batch to fill up 50 HL tanks. I am currently making a lager and an ale. My setup is Mash Mixer (with two steam Jackets), Lauter (no steam jackets), and BK + WP (with two steam jackets and an immersion steam coil we installed after setup of the system). From mill in of the first batch to running caustic loops on the BK and KO system takes me about 13 hours. Even though our mill in procedure is longer then many other places I am interested in how your friend is able to do three batches in just 10.5 hours. First off I will say DO NOT BUY DIRECTLY FROM CHINA!!!! My owner here made that mistake and with the lost in production time and extra work we have had to put into the system we might as well have paid the extra money to get something from America or Europe. Dont be enticed by their tactics and cheap prices, it is not worth it. Even though they did mess up our system the one thing they did do well was the whirlpool. The whirlpool I am able to produce on this system is actually the best ive gotten out of any other system. The system I worked with beforehand was also a three vessel but setup was M+L, then BK, then WP with steam jackets only being in the BK. It was also pretty efficient and I was able to do a double brewday in the same time as I can here. Since you are concered about step mashing I would consider the first vessel to be an independent mash mixer with the steam jackets so that way you can dial in your mash temperature for the entire mash process then just pump it over to the lauter. Then as soon as the mash mixer is emptied and sprayed out you can start milling in on the next batch.

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      • #4
        Used the last two systems in your line up. Although the combined mash lauter tun was heated, it does not perform good step mashes as the rakes do not mix well enough for a good temperature distribution. I by far preference the "US" style (although I would call it German) with a steam heated MM and BK+WP. (MM) (LT) (BK+WP). Have never had an issue with the dimensions of the BK/WP. Hops settle in a nice pile in the center just fine. Prefer a domed bottom to draw off, but worked well in flat bottom too. "US" style I have been able to double batch and CIP in 10.5 hours with no problems. I had double sized CLT and HLT.

        I am skeptical that you can do 3 batches in 10.5 hours with your friends system. Combined MM and BK. I would love to see a breakdown of how he times that out. I have never seen this type of system, but personally I would stay far, far away from that. Moving out of one vessel just to go back in sounds like a lot of leap-frogging to me. Piping heat two two vessels will not cost that much extra if done correctly. The extra jacketed vessel will cost a little bit more however provide you with more flexibility.

        If you already contract brew, why not adopt the same type of system you are contracting on? You already have someone you can talk to about how to produce your beers, and then you will have less variance when switching from contracting to in-house production.

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        • #5
          Thanks for the replies.

          Originally posted by UnFermentable View Post
          If you already contract brew, why not adopt the same type of system you are contracting on? You already have someone you can talk to about how to produce your beers, and then you will have less variance when switching from contracting to in-house production.
          They are working in a 4 vessel system, so implementing the same thing wouldn't work

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          • #6
            Originally posted by UnFermentable View Post
            I by far preference the "US" style (although I would call it German) with a steam heated MM and BK+WP. (MM) (LT) (BK+WP). Have never had an issue with the dimensions of the BK/WP. Hops settle in a nice pile in the center just fine.
            What concerns me is that when you combine the WP with the Brew Kettle, you automatically block the kettle while whirlpooling and transferring to the fermentation tank, which is at least 1 hour. Am I right?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by tarikapak View Post
              What concerns me is that when you combine the WP with the Brew Kettle, you automatically block the kettle while whirlpooling and transferring to the fermentation tank, which is at least 1 hour. Am I right?
              Yes, however if you take into account the total time the kettle is occupied, it will be very similar to your BK+MM system, 3.5 to 4.5 hours. Difference is I can run in a linear pattern and don't have to clean the BK out before running back into it each time. Only once between batches. I can also mash #2 while I am half way through boil and by the time I have finished KO, vorlauf is complete allowing me to run right back into the kettle. I hate the thought of using a WP vessel for only 1-1.5 hours total. Seems like a waste of expensive equipment (and space) to me. A lot of guys like the separate WP, but for me it did not provide any great advantage. Perhaps if it was a four vessel system I would support it.

              BK+MM = 15min mash in, 60min rest, transfer to lauter time, (clean kettle during vorlauf), begin Lauter run off 90-120min, boil 60-90min, clean out for next mash, start over. 3.75 hours occupied on the low side not including the dead 30mins of vorlauf or the transfer times.
              BK+WP = 90-120 min for lauter, 60-90min boil, 10min WP, 20min WP Rest, 30min knock out to Fermentor, rinse Kettle start over. 3.5 hours occupied on the low side.

              Like I said, I would love to see a timeline of how your friend says he gets 3 brews in 10.5 hours on the BK+MM system. Personally, I don't think it would be possible. It sounds like you are looking to convince yourself this is a better system. I feel like you would not be able to brew a second batch until you had fully completed the first.

              Comment


              • #8
                Portland Kettle Works

                Contact Joe at Portland Kettle Works.
                They designed me a great 4 vessel system that can easily do 6 15Bbl batches in 18 hrs.
                Great company to work with.
                Good luck in your venture.
                Lance
                Reno, Nevada USA
                Lancejergensen@gmail.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Let's go back to basics. I’m not trying to give you an straight answer but trying to give some explanations of the benefits of various possible options so you can make the decision.

                  The first thing to do is to consider what sort of mashing regime you need to operate - because of the malt and adjuncts used.

                  So, if you are using well modified malt of the sort available in the UK and other western European countries (even if not everyone uses these malts all the time) and only want to produce low DMS lagers and ales, then you can use a simple British Brewery style mash tun, and simply mash in at circa 65 degrees, and sparge and runoff to a wort kettle - nice and simple. The malts to be used will allow you to do this without any problems - but obviously you have to use the right malts. In this particular setup, you don't need rakes - they get in the way when cleaning, and generally in small breweries are not designed to either mix or to cut the mash properly - so are a waste of time and money.

                  If you want to produce slightly more specialised beers - using for instance large quantities of wheat, or other adjuncts, or you want to produce a high DMS lager, or perhaps because your malt supplier cannot supply you with suitable malt, then you will need a mash mixer with effective heating and temperature control, and a low shear mixer paddle and separate lauter tun with properly designed raking system - appropriate numbers, speed of rotation, and preferably ability to raise and lower a little. This will be required because you have knock the air out of the mash in the mash mixer - so it no longer ahs air to lift the mash in the lauter tun and maintain the porosity.

                  Oh yes, you will have to make sure the grist ratios are suitable for the type of mashing and lautering regime you wish to use.

                  Re wort kettle / whirlpool - depends on the hops you want to use for best results. If you want to use whole hops, a whirlpool doesn't work well with them and the losses are rather high, so a separate hop back to sieve out the hops is the better option. If you use pellet hops and/or extracts - use a whirlpool. As has been said - the use of a completely separate whirlpool is almost an extravagance in a micro brewery – the big boys with multiple highly automated lauter tuns or mash filters with fast turnround times can utilise one of these fully, and lets them have a bit of buffering in the system. So a combined kettle / whirlpool is a sensible route if you are going this route.

                  If you want to, you can use the mash mixing vessel as a wort kettle as well, but if you have a mixing paddle for effective mash mixing then the mixer paddle destroys the whirlpool effect, so you would have to use a hob back type of system to remove the hops.

                  But you can only use a hopback system effectively with whole hops as the fine particles of pelletised hops pass through / blind the hop back retaining mesh !!
                  dick

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