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  • Dry Yeast

    Anyone out there using dry yeast? I now liquid is more expensive, but wondering if anyone had any tips regarding the use of either dry or liquid.

    thanks,

    Kevin Whipple
    Prosper Brewing LLC

  • #2
    I am a huge fan of the Fermentis line of dry yeast strains. It's comes in 500g bricks and you can pretty much make every Ale and lager style with their yeast portfolio. I really like their S-04 (English ale yeast), WB-06 (hefeweizen yeast) and K-97 (Kolsch/Alt yeast).

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    • #3
      Fermentis is really all I ever use. US-05, T-58, S-04, WB-06. I brew on a 2bbl system and use the 11 gram packets. It is no more expensive than buying in 500 gram bricks. I just rehydrate with 10 times it's weight of distilled water & put on a stir plate for 15 min and let rest for a bit and then pitch. Flawless, predictable results every single time. It is one thing in my brew day I don't have to worry about.

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      • #4
        Fermentis works fine, but has never given me anything super exciting. I prefer liquid when you can obtain it in good condition, but I like the Lallemand better than Fermentis personally. I feel like I get more character out of the BRY-97 over US-05 and Munich Classic over the WB-06.

        Follow the instructions and aerate properly and they all make good beers.

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        • #5
          Ferments yeasts are fantastic. I occasionally use Lallemand, but they are considerably more expensive than Fermentis. I use S04, S05, WB06, W34/70, and BE256, have made multiple award winning beers with all of those. I pitch fresh yeast dry, you really don't need to hydrate it despite popular opinion/instructions (as verified by their rep, who is a VERY skilled brewer), and I aerate it on the fresh pitch even though they say that a new pitch does not need aeration (due to lipids introduced in the drying process), I have found that I get a quicker start if I aerate vs non-aerated. Subsequent harvests/pitch absolutely requires aeration of course.

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          • #6
            I've been using Fermentis off and on for years. They perform great. My experience is that the yeasts that are supposed to be relatively clean (US-05, S-189, S-23 and even S-04 if fermented very cool) are great. The yeasts that are supposed to be flavorful are kind of disappointing.

            I use a 500g brick in my 7 bbl batches and just sprinkle it on top of the wort as I'm knocking out. Expect it to take an extra 12 hours to really get going. After the initial pitch you can harvest the yeast and use it again as you would liquid pitches.

            Cheers,
            Hutch
            Hutch Kugeman
            Head Brewer
            Brooklyn Brewery at the Culinary Institute of America
            Hyde Park, NY

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            • #7
              The yeasts that are supposed to be flavorful are kind of disappointing.

              I agree on this. Have used the Fermentis WB06 for hefes and just can't coax much (if any banana) out of it, no matter the temp. And the BE-256 for a tripel and though it fermented nice and dry, the yeast character imparted was much more subtle than I would have liked, though they actually advertise it as subtle. I do like the 34/70 and have adopted it as my house lager strain. Have used it for helles, pils, maibock, dunkel so far -- happy with em all.

              Would like to try the Lallemand Munich Classic Wheat and Saison. Who does Lallemand distribute through (or do they)? Went to their site and the only way I could find to buy 500g bricks was a link to Amazon where they were all ranging from $178 to $195. One of the great benefits (for me) of the dry is that I can one-off without it costing the same or close to as a liquid pitch. Those prices are more than twice that of the Fermentis.
              Dave Cowie
              Three Forks Bakery & Brewing Company
              Nevada City, CA

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              • #8
                Originally posted by barleyfreak View Post
                Who does Lallemand distribute through (or do they)? Went to their site and the only way I could find to buy 500g bricks was a link to Amazon where they were all ranging from $178 to $195. One of the great benefits (for me) of the dry is that I can one-off without it costing the same or close to as a liquid pitch. Those prices are more than twice that of the Fermentis.
                Just saw an email today that brewcraft/Country Malt is now carrying the full Lallemand line in 500g bricks. You can also order direct through Lallemand and I think they offer free shipping.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by kugeman View Post
                  I've been using Fermentis off and on for years. They perform great. My experience is that the yeasts that are supposed to be relatively clean (US-05, S-189, S-23 and even S-04 if fermented very cool) are great. The yeasts that are supposed to be flavorful are kind of disappointing.

                  I use a 500g brick in my 7 bbl batches and just sprinkle it on top of the wort as I'm knocking out. Expect it to take an extra 12 hours to really get going. After the initial pitch you can harvest the yeast and use it again as you would liquid pitches.

                  Cheers,
                  Hutch
                  What cool temp are you fermenting S04 to get cleaner tasting ales? Thanks!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by barleyfreak View Post
                    The yeasts that are supposed to be flavorful are kind of disappointing.

                    I agree on this. Have used the Fermentis WB06 for hefes and just can't coax much (if any banana) out of it, no matter the temp. And the BE-256 for a tripel and though it fermented nice and dry, the yeast character imparted was much more subtle than I would have liked, though they actually advertise it as subtle. I do like the 34/70 and have adopted it as my house lager strain. Have used it for helles, pils, maibock, dunkel so far -- happy with em all.

                    Would like to try the Lallemand Munich Classic Wheat and Saison. Who does Lallemand distribute through (or do they)? Went to their site and the only way I could find to buy 500g bricks was a link to Amazon where they were all ranging from $178 to $195. One of the great benefits (for me) of the dry is that I can one-off without it costing the same or close to as a liquid pitch. Those prices are more than twice that of the Fermentis.
                    This was also my experience. Great for beers that don't require yeast character, but just so-so for beers driven by yeast flavor. Munich Classic specifically, gave me a lot more complexity in weizen beers. It can be a big sulphur producer (especially in first generation), so you want to watch your fermentation techniques. I like WLP300 but its just straight banana and clove, WB-06 was just more of fruity than banana for me. Munich Classic gives both banana and clove, but also has notes of general fruitiness as well as a slight vanilla character. Big fan, although I am still dialing in exactly what I like. BTW - Less aeration = more banana with all the weizen strains. WS-34/70 is a great strain and the Fermentis version is great, but again it is a mainly neutral yeast producing beers driven by other characters (hops, malt).

                    Here the cost difference between Lallemand and Fermentis is a few dollars (literally) so it was worth a try. I have had good yeast characters out of Nottingham in the past, and have since ordered some London ESB and Abbaye Belgian. Really happy with the Munich Classic and the BRY-97 West Coast. We will also be trialing the new Sour culture offered by Lallemand as one of the first in India.

                    FWIW - I used to work for a big liquid yeast company, but here obtaining it in good condition is much more difficult. Costs average the same to me as I find I get about 5-8 good generations out of the dry, but usually 10-15 from the liquids. Double the initial investment, but per batch costs are similar. I agree completely with the one offs though, and dry stores much longer giving me versatility. I have won awards (back in the US) with two liquid manufacturers and a dry, so I don't put up quality of one over another. They are just different flavors. Making good beers is on you!

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                    • #11
                      Wow. Lots of great advise. Unfermentable thanks for the tip on how many times you can expect to reuse each type. As with most we have used both kinds of yeast and have had good and not as good results with each. I guess we should take the approach if it ain't broke don't fix it. I'd hate to brew something that has turned out great with a liquid yeast and use a dry and have it come out not as good, just to save a couple of bucks.

                      thanks again for all the great advise,

                      Kevin Whipple
                      Prosper Brewing LLC

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                      • #12
                        I would like to submit that WB06 (the Weihenstephan hefe strain) will get very flavorful if it is treated right. For a start, that one needs to be underpitched to get the character to come through. To get a good clove flavor in my Roggenbier I pitch at about 70% the rate I would use for other ales. Ferments has a chart that will show you pitch rate and fermentation temperature to get different degrees of banana/clove from the yeast. BE256 will throw some interesting flavors, and ferments like a beast. However it is on the milder side of Belgian strains. It makes a subtle but complex beer and the character will change over time, post ferment, with conditioning at fermentation temp.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wailingguitar View Post
                          I would like to submit that WB06 (the Weihenstephan hefe strain) will get very flavorful if it is treated right. For a start, that one needs to be underpitched to get the character to come through. To get a good clove flavor in my Roggenbier I pitch at about 70% the rate I would use for other ales. Ferments has a chart that will show you pitch rate and fermentation temperature to get different degrees of banana/clove from the yeast.
                          I am 99% positive that the WB06 is NOT the Weihenstephaner strain. The Wyeast 3068 would be according to their information. These two are most definitely different. I would agree that all yeast will tend to give more character if under-pitched, and the wheat/weizen/wit strains tend to be very active so there is not nearly as much worry of inactivity from under-pitching.

                          Ester production is also affected by oxygen levels as well as pitch rates and temperatures. Under-pitching will increase Acetate Transferases "AAT" (yeast enzymes) which drive ester production, however cell production will consume Acetyl CoA (an activated acid) which is necessary for esters (a combination of alcohols and acids). Reducing oxygen will stop cell production earlier and therefore decrease Acetyl CoA consumption earlier, which will lead to increased ester production (particularly isoamyl acetate which uses acetate transferases, Acetyl CoA, and isoamyl alcohol).

                          In practical experience, I have found that these weizen strains are typically effected more by reduction of oxygen over the lower pitching rates, however I try to do both. Perhaps this is because the acetate transferases do not require a high concentration to catalyze reactions between alcohols and acids, or perhaps because these strains have already been selected for producing more of these "AAT" enzymes. Isoamyl alcohol is thought to be produced by pyruvate and Acetyl CoA during amino acid synthesis, or potentially by nitrogen uptake. The isoamyl alcohol is likely present in high quantities due to ale fermentation temperatures, but is also effected by oxygen and the nitrogen content. Since isoamyl alcohol could also be influenced by Acetyl CoA content, that is where I likely find the oxygen to be a dominant factor. Less oxygen = more Acetyl CoA, which = more isoamyl alcohol and in the presence of enough acetate transferases will bind with Acetyl CoA to convert to isoamyl acetate (banana).

                          Clove is 4-vinyl guaiacol (a phenol) and is derived due to decarboxylation of ferulic acid by a "POF" gene in the yeast. It is influenced a lot more by malt and hop content than from the yeast, although a "POF" positive gene is needed in the strain. Mash schedule and pH can change ferulic acid content drastically, affecting how much potential for 4-vinyl guaiacol there is. The yeast is an integral part of production, but does not influence the quantity as much as the other factors. Rye and wheat both tend to offer higher ferulic contents, and I imagine a 70% wheat beer would also produce lots of clove in proper conditions.

                          To the original point, I found WB06 to get fruity (lots of esters) but just not enough Banana (specifically isoamyl acetate) for my tastes in a good weizen. Clove was fine, but derived less from the yeast strain. As stated, the Fermentis can definitely make good beer, its just up to your specific desires.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by UnFermentable View Post
                            I am 99% positive that the WB06 is NOT the Weihenstephaner strain.
                            Perhaps not, but that was the information I was given by at least 2 people at Fermentis/LaSaffe

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wailingguitar View Post
                              Perhaps not, but that was the information I was given by at least 2 people at Fermentis/LaSaffe
                              They probably meant that this was the closest offering they have.

                              Beyond the fact that it behaves differently than the Wyeast 3068 advertised as Weihenstephan and doesn't taste like the Hefe Weissbier from Weihenstephan, they (Fermentis) advertise the W-34/70 as a Weihenstephan, the S-189 from Hurlimann, and the S-23 from VLB Berlin, so it would seem like a huge oversight to not advertise this fact on the WB-06.

                              In fact it doesn't even claim a region like most of their products, just that it is a specialty yeast selected for wheat beer fermentation. It also specifically states "subtle estery and phenol flavor notes" which was exactly my experiences.

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