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  • Heat Exchanger Issues

    Hello,
    We are into our 3rd 10 bbl batch on system and we are struggling with our heat exchanger. We bought this unit https://www.gwkent.com/heat-exchanger.html the 6.0 meter unit
    from GW Kent but the support seems to be lacking.

    We have a 1HP c-114 pump with 1.5 TC in and 1.5 TC out the pump runs at about 1725rpm. And outputs about 40gpm. when we push this thru our new heat exchanger we get about 3PM. So here is where things get weird when I called them the told me the labels for the input/outputs where backward. So we flipped them. Then they told us to loosen the bolt but couldn't tell to what with. just loosen till it leaks. So we tried that then ended up getting about 6gpm out of the unit but then the water side was leaking.
    At this point we don't know what to do other than to plan on 1.5 hour chill down... is there anybody out there using this unit with any success and can give me the width you are running your plates at?

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Ko

    Hi,
    I have a C114 pump with a hx (some Chinese model) from cpe systems on a 10hl (8.5BBl) system and it tends to take about an hour to an hour and a half in summer to KO. Largely dependent on the incoming water temp unless you are running glycol. Gk should definitely be able to tell you what width to run your HX and i would be persistent until they did. Loosening till it leaks seems like a very bad idea to me but maybe i am paranoid, things leaking seem to spell disaster. What were you planning for on the ko time?
    Cheers,
    Nate

    Comment


    • #3
      Bad advise on the loosening until it leaks. This will create areas where you are much more likely to harbor bacteria and soil. And will also lead to gasket failure. Tighten it back up. There should be specs on the nameplate.

      Hook up some water. Run this and look at your rates. Also use water flows to figure out your true inlet and outlet. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out when the cooling water goes in the opposite direction as the wort.

      When cooling keep a little back pressure on the wort side by only partially opening the valve to the fermenter. Not so much as to actually slow the rate much, but enough to keep any foaming from happening in the exchanger.

      Doesn't necessarily make sense that foaming can happen there but ............. I see it in these small heat exchangers. Making sure it stays full of liquid keeps the cooling more efficient, and is easier on the wort.

      It also makes it easier to adjust your aeration rate if you are aerating just after the heat exchanger.

      Comment


      • #4
        Drunken Rabbit

        I operate a brewery in MA as well. If you want to discuss this, I am happy to get on the phone with you. My brewery is in Framingham (Exhibit 'A' Brewing) but I live in Bondsville, so we are somewhat local to each other. I am surprised I haven't heard of you until this morning, but being about 15 months old, I have been focused pretty heavily on my brewery and not so much others int he news. I wish you the very best on your venture and look forward to tasting your beers.

        Not sure you know, but we also have a rabbit as part of our branding. Check out our beer Hair Raiser DIPA. sort of punk rock steam punk rabbit, so very different from yours.

        Matthew
        508-202-9297
        ________________
        Matthew Steinberg
        Co-Founder
        Exhibit 'A' Brewing Co.
        Framingham, MA USA

        Head Brewer
        Filler of Vessels
        Seller of Liquid
        Barreled Beer Aging Specialist
        Yeast Wrangler
        Microbe Handler
        Malt Slinger
        Hop Sniffer
        Food Eater
        Music Listener

        Comment


        • #5
          X-changer Issues

          Unfortunately the info on the plate does not identify the proper tightening specs. it was at 5 7/8" (from inside of press plates). When i bought it they claimed it would knock down in about 30 min... They still claim this but cant seem to help me figure out what the issue is.

          Comment


          • #6
            Plate on Exchanger

            This is the plate on the exchanger.

            Click image for larger version

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            Comment


            • #7
              Here is what you need to check

              1) Make sure you are running counter current flow. Wort running front to back and water running back to front.
              2) Check your water flow, you need at least 10 GPM (time how long it takes to fill 5 gallon bucket, should be less the 30 seconds)
              3) Check your water inlet temp, should be <60F
              4) Check your water outlet temp, should be > 150 F
              5) Make sure your water section is flooded. I have seen cases where the water flow is too low and doesn't cover all of the plates so essentially they were only using half of the plates.
              Your CPE Systems Team!
              CPE Systems Inc.
              800-668-2268
              CPEsystems.com
              Thinkpumps.com
              sales@cpesystems.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CPESystems View Post
                1) Make sure you are running counter current flow. Wort running front to back and water running back to front.
                2) Check your water flow, you need at least 10 GPM (time how long it takes to fill 5 gallon bucket, should be less the 30 seconds)
                3) Check your water inlet temp, should be <60F
                4) Check your water outlet temp, should be > 150 F
                5) Make sure your water section is flooded. I have seen cases where the water flow is too low and doesn't cover all of the plates so essentially they were only using half of the plates.
                These are all important, but it sounds like your issue is with the flow rate not reaching 10GPM.

                If your HX has never ran 10GPM, there are two likely scenarios in my opinion. One is that there is something stuck in the HX causing a reduced flow. I have seen pieces of grinding wheels, bits of scrap metal and rags clog up spray balls, and other process equipment in the past. You can try running high pressure backwards through to try and free up anything stuck, or you can break down the HX and put it all back together paying attention to anything that could block flow. Second scenario is that it was over tightened during assembly and the plates have been crushed limiting the flow rate severely. Not much you can do with that other than send it back for a new one. This is why minimum and maximum pack depth is usually stated right on the exchanger. You might be able to see obstructions if you disassemble, but not always.

                If it initially flowed 10GPM, then you have clogged it with something and it is likely you can blast it out in reverse. Check the max pressure rating and push hard.

                If GW can not give you proper specs on the min/max pack depth, flow rate, and pressure drops I would suggest you return it and source one from a reputable manufacturer. (Alfa Laval, Thermaline, Ect). GW is not particularly cheap, so the savings from using them is not worth the lack of important information, IMHO. Suggesting to loosen it until it leaks is poor advice without the min/max info. Also you need to tighten (and technically loosen) the bolts in a specific pattern, usually a cross pattern, for even tightening.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Never Worked Proper

                  I have tried all of the above. including taking it apart. there were no visible issues. This unit never ran any better than 3-4 gallons per min. even with just water. GW is accepting the unit back for a full refund including shipping. We are looking at another unit from CPE.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Return it and call Thermaline. Proper HX's fix everything. they will size it for you specifically.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Your pump has wrong motor....

                      You should never compromise your process or your beer quality because you've specified wrong equipment, or the supplier didn't meet specifications. It really isn't that hard to do it right the first time by planning and specifying equipment carefully. Your heat exchanger should have been specified thoroughly. Don't just pick one based on "works with 10bbls". Yeah, maybe over two hours it will work, but in general you should knockout in 30 minutes, get 80C hot liquor, use 1.2x batch length for cooling water, and work with your pump. It should also come with full specifications/drawings, including design temperatures/pressures, plate arrangement/sequence drawings, and tightening limits. If it did not, you should not have purchased this unit. If you have a way to return it, then do so. Sorry for the lecture, but you need to know what you have to know what you will get.

                      Fortunately the 114 pump is a quality unit with published specifications, so we can start there. Look at the pump curve for 114, and assuming you did not have impeller trimmed, you will only get 40gpm with a very light back pressure of 16 feet of head. Most plate Hx are designed to run at something closer to double that. The 114 pump is limited to less than 20 feet of head before it doesn't pump at all. Far too little to push your wort at a satisfactory rate. This is why nearly all pumps in any brewery run at high speed. That takes a 3450 rpm two-pole motor. Cheap and easy. You may even have to trim your impeller to match flow rates better with a 1hp motor, so be sure to monitor the motor current during knockout to be sure you are not taxing the motor too much with full diameter impeller. Change your motor, get the right heat exchanger, assure it's tightened properly and Bob's your uncle. You will be on your way to putting this behind you and making great beer with an hour's worth of work to change the motor, and a bit of follow up on commissioning. Good luck!
                      Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you!

                        Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                        You should never compromise your process or your beer quality because you've specified wrong equipment, or the supplier didn't meet specifications. It really isn't that hard to do it right the first time by planning and specifying equipment carefully. Your heat exchanger should have been specified thoroughly. Don't just pick one based on "works with 10bbls". Yeah, maybe over two hours it will work, but in general you should knockout in 30 minutes, get 80C hot liquor, use 1.2x batch length for cooling water, and work with your pump. It should also come with full specifications/drawings, including design temperatures/pressures, plate arrangement/sequence drawings, and tightening limits. If it did not, you should not have purchased this unit. If you have a way to return it, then do so. Sorry for the lecture, but you need to know what you have to know what you will get.

                        Fortunately the 114 pump is a quality unit with published specifications, so we can start there. Look at the pump curve for 114, and assuming you did not have impeller trimmed, you will only get 40gpm with a very light back pressure of 16 feet of head. Most plate Hx are designed to run at something closer to double that. The 114 pump is limited to less than 20 feet of head before it doesn't pump at all. Far too little to push your wort at a satisfactory rate. This is why nearly all pumps in any brewery run at high speed. That takes a 3450 rpm two-pole motor. Cheap and easy. You may even have to trim your impeller to match flow rates better with a 1hp motor, so be sure to monitor the motor current during knockout to be sure you are not taxing the motor too much with full diameter impeller. Change your motor, get the right heat exchanger, assure it's tightened properly and Bob's your uncle. You will be on your way to putting this behind you and making great beer with an hour's worth of work to change the motor, and a bit of follow up on commissioning. Good luck!
                        Thanks for the lecture, sometimes that is what is needed. I have been able to locate the specs on this heat exchanger. And have decided to hold on to it after consulting with a few others we determined that you are spot on with the pump RPM being way to low to create enough back pressure to move the beer at a reasonable rate. So thank you!

                        Also, How did you know Bob was my uncle? LOL

                        Cheers!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I've only just picked up this one. I agree with Phillips comments, but would like to add a couple of observations

                          Based on a couple of heat exchanger quotes I have, I would expect you to be able to process about 30 hl (792 US gallon) / hr through this PHE, though of course all PHEs are rated differently. As noted, you also need to specify the different temperatures and flows required - so again, I have a quote for a 16.5 hl / hr unit of 3.4 m2, which assumes 100 C wort inlet, 20 C wort outlet, chilled water in at 15 C, and water outlet 73 C - not the worlds most brilliant spec, but there we are, that's what I have. This has a pressure drop of 0.44 bar on the wort side. Then you have to add pipework restrictions and FV head pressure - so allow for a total of about 1 bar head pressure by the wort pump.

                          But ideally you want a bigger pump than that because you want to be able to clean in revers flow, at circa 150% of forward design flow rate - in this case because of one inch pipework, I would be looking for greater than 30 hl / (800 US g / hr), and much more if you ae using 1.5 inch pipework - circa 70 hl / hr (1850 US g / hr).
                          dick

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            We had nothing but issues with our heat ex that came with our brew house 4 years ago. We bought one from CPE to replace it approx 3 years ago and haven't had a single issue. Works 100% perfect. For what it is worth..

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