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  • Lagers Question and Capability

    I'm working on a new brewery project and I've gone into this with the impression that Lagering is not entirely feasible for a startup due to extra cost. Can somebody comment on this?

    I understand where there can be an issue, but the only drawback I can see if timing. How long does a typical commercial brewery lager a beer?

    I just finished a batch of Munich Dunkel and a helles on a small system and they taste incredible virtually green....

  • #2
    Two things favor ales over lagers for cash-tight operations. First, brewing lagers takes more equipment in the form of more or larger tanks to age the beer in. In the same size system, you can turn ales over in two weeks, and lagers in 5-6 weeks, traditionally. Second is cash flow. Say you buy grain on 30 days net. If you brew with it right away, ferment the beer for two weeks, and then sell all of that beer within two weeks of packaging, then essentially you have been paid for the grain by the time that you have to pay the grain vendor. If you do lagers, and don't get paid for another 3-4 weeks, then you have to have enough working capital to pay the vendor before you get paid, or 3-4 weeks of working capital in the bank that you can't do anything with as far as investing in new equipment or paying down your debt. If you are borrowing that money for your working capital, then you are also paying interest on that money.
    Linus Hall
    Yazoo Brewing
    Nashville, TN
    www.yazoobrew.com

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    • #3
      Finanace...

      Never thought about the terms issue.....

      And I just did a case analysis on factoring where that was the issue....

      Thanks for the info.. I'm going to have to pick up some of your beer now!

      Comment


      • #4
        lagers

        Well I think it depends on the lagering time obviously. Lager is the german word for "storing" as many of us know. It´s feasible to produce lagers via a 1 Tank method and a 3 week cycle especially if you´re not filtering your beer. It depends on what kind of stability you are striving for.

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        • #5
          errr?

          Originally posted by Sulfur
          .It´s feasible to produce lagers via a 1 Tank method and a 3 week cycle especially if you´re not filtering your beer.
          You have a ironically appropriate posting name if you are producing unfiltered lagers in 3 weeks!!!

          Although, I have read that some successful studies have been done with a specific lager strain and fermenting under pressure at a higher temp. Forgot where though...probably because I’m sticking with the old fashioned 12-14 day fermentation and 4-6 weeks lagering. I do call myself a "Craftbrewer" after all.
          Brewmaster, Minocqua Brewing Company
          tbriggs@minocquabrewingcompany.com
          "Your results may vary"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Ted Briggs
            You have a ironically appropriate posting name if you are producing unfiltered lagers in 3 weeks!!!

            Although, I have read that some successful studies have been done with a specific lager strain and fermenting under pressure at a higher temp. Forgot where though...probably because I’m sticking with the old fashioned 12-14 day fermentation and 4-6 weeks lagering. I do call myself a "Craftbrewer" after all.
            Yes it is possible to do a 3 week lager. The yeast is carried by White Labs it is called WLP925 and it will produce a lager in 3-4 weeks. The primary fermentation takes 1 week. The term lager last time I checked means to store so I'm a little confused as to what part of "Craftbrewer" one needs to specialize in to age beer? (Just kidding....kind of) I have produced wonderful lager beers using this yeast in 4 weeks and still consider myself to be a craftbrewer. Not trying to start a flame war but I always get a kick out of these threads.

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            • #7
              At my brewery we often package filtered pilsners, double bocks and even and half filtered lagers (I push some yeast though the rough filter sheets) in only 18 -21 days. We use Wyeast Bravarian lager yeast. I havent had much in the dyacetal or sulfur notes in the beer and I have gone over 40 generations on the yeast.

              So you can do it. BUT If you are setting up a brewery which is focused on lagering then perhaps a large cold room and singlewalled 4-6 batch tanks would be wise, you could save €$£ by using this format than just fermenters or seperatly cooled maturation tanks.

              My brewery is focused on a little bit of everything and getting the beer out fast! Until we get our expansion done.
              www.Lervig.no

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              • #8
                perfect world

                3 weeks is doable given the right yeast as mentioned. It´s not what I promote but in terms of keeping costs down like the original poster was concerned with - it´s one solution. In a perfect world we´d have tanks galore and cellar space to house them!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michael Murphy
                  We use Wyeast Bravarian lager yeast. I havent had much in the dyacetal or sulfur notes in the beer and I have gone over 40 generations on the yeast.
                  Ditto on the Barvarian lager yeast. We haven't been brave enough for 40 generations though!

                  Neil Herbst
                  Alley Kat Brewing Company

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                  • #10
                    I have alot of fermenters to choose from, Im about to get a new shippment to start the new generations with next week, the last order was about this time last year... I must have made about 7,000 hl with the original 10 lt slurry from wyeast. thats about .0000007 cents per liter!!!
                    www.Lervig.no

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                    • #11
                      Fermentation and maturation temperatures

                      I am surpised that nobody spoke about fermentation and maturation temperatures. These temperatures determine the time needed to produce your lager. The finest lagers are produced at low temperatures (pitching at 6°C and ending main fermentation at 11-12°C and a long maturation (4-6 weeks) at 0-5°C. Pitching at 12°C and ending main fermentation at 16°C will allow to produce your lager in 3 weeks (2 weeks for maturation) but the resulting lager will have a much lower drinkability and will be less thirst quenching.

                      Cheers!

                      Pablo Alvarez
                      CBS: A team of brewing experts producing natural flavors and special brewing enzymes to help the brewers to produce new brands and modulate beer properties.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ted Briggs
                        probably because I’m sticking with the old fashioned 12-14 day fermentation
                        Old fashioned or maybe its time for some system correction. Yikes!

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                        • #13
                          time/lagering space = money

                          If you're able to brew a lager like that, i.e. with ample time (therefore at low temperatures) in an "old-fashioned", why would you want to "correct" that?

                          The only reason lagers aren't brewed with ample time anymore is for economic reasons, obviously not for reasons of flavor and stability. Traditionally brewed lagers are few and far between in America but unfortunately not that common in Europe anymore either, because time/lagering space is money.

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                          • #14
                            Well, at least one American brewery still sticks to an "old fashioned" lagering schedule - I think that Budweiser's time in the tanks is about 5 weeks. Does that make them a craft brewer?
                            Linus Hall
                            Yazoo Brewing
                            Nashville, TN
                            www.yazoobrew.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Traditional Lager Methods

                              As far as the economic analysis, Linus has it right. Brewing ales vs lagers is all about time/capacity/revenue. You will find it difficult to brew lagers traditionally unless you have the physical capacity and financial resources to do so. Furthermore, your production planning is more difficult purely because of the longer production period.

                              Regarding traditional methods, I have to agree with Ted here. At our brewery we only produce lagers (unfiltered) for seasonal specialties and do so when we can afford two weeks of fermenation tank space and 4 weeks of conditioning tank space. We often use Bavarian Lager yeast and find that sulphur dissipates greatly after about the 3-4th week of conditioning.

                              Also notice what White Labs says about WLP925:

                              "Use to ferment lager beer in one week! Ferment at room temperature 62-68°F) under 1.0 bar (14.7 PSI) until final gravity is obtained, generally in one week. Lager the beer at 35°F, 15 PSI, for 3-5 days, to condition. Sulfur production is strong first 2 days, then disappears by day 5. Do not need to carbonate, since at 1 bar entire time."

                              It is definitely a modified (under pressure) fermentation. I have never tried that particular strain of yeast, but would be reluctant to use try that yeast/method (no VDK rest) on a lager because of diacetyl issues alone.

                              People brew for different reasons. I personally adhere to traditional brewing methods because I believe that craft beer is a blend of art, science, AND tradition. I'll stop here before my flamethrower gets warmed up......

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