Raw Material Costs and Long Neck Bottles

[whiterabbit]

I am working on a business plan for a brewpub. I have found it difficult to come across the raw material cost estimates for long neck bottles. Can anyone help me out by providing me with this information.
My main questions are who are the main suppliers, what is the bulk size that manufacturers prefer bottles are purchased, and of course what is the price per bottle? Any help with these questions is much appreciated.

[einhorn]

Two main factors

The three main factors involved with bottle pricing is pre-packed vs. bulk, quantity and your location to the nearest supplier. The quantity factor is not that relavent, and pre-packed is the most expensive.

[Woolsocks]

Cans

Be sure to consider cans instead of bottles as an option. All aspects of canning are generally cheaper than bottling -- equipment,labor,maintenance, and packaging. Only downer is you have to by lots of cans at once, but that's offset by the low cost of setting up the equipment.

[gitchegumee]

I'm with Woolsocks here. Since starting our canning operation, I actually look forward to packaging days. Other pluses to cans: They are much faster per capital dollar spent; smaller brewery footprint; the machinery requires less energy; the machinery uses less CO2 (last two assuming you DON'T counterpressure fill); they require no label, glue or machine to get great looking graphics; they chill quicker; they're lighter; they pack more densely; they are more often recycled; they don't break (ideal for us--planes, boats, beaches, pools); the empties are easier to pack out; oxygen pickups are lower per capital dollar spent; light penetration is zero; they don't leave separate jagged metal crowns as litter; and they don't require an opener. The cons are the high initial inventory to get cans printed, and the aesthetic of glass to die-hards. And no, I don't work for Cask--but I will take unsolicited commission checks! Cheers!

[brewbonghm]

The other con not mentioned is that storing 200,000+ cans + lids + retainers + cartons requires a couple of thousand square feet minimum. Moving those odd sized extremely tall skids is also a bit of an ass-ache, ping ping ping aw crap another $.15.

[lhall]

brewpub = long neck bottles?

[gitchegumee]

Containers are containers. Glass or cans they all take up space. And cans pack better than glass. Storage for all of our cans is a single 40 foot shipping container. Only ~ 350 square feet. Same size as a load of glass. And we've had great luck having them shipped across the Pacific without damage. Better than with glass. The pallets are lighter than glass--two of us can move them by hand. Given the choice between pallets of longnecks and pallets of cans, I'll always choose cans.

[brewbonghm]

Please allow me to clarify;
I have packaged in cans as well as bottles.
The last brewery I packaged in cans had four separate packages, the great folks over at Ball we gracious enough to allow us to split orders of 198,000 odd pieces between 2 packages 50%/50%. The skids as I recall were 54"x40"x9'. so at any given time there may have been as many as 30 skids of cans which required access to all four styles. The space alloted in a 5,000' warehouse for said packaging was about 2,000' (and that was tighter than a clams ass at high tide). Bottles on the other hand could be purchased as little as one flat pack at a time, in close proximity, thrown on a pick-up truck and a dozen different labels could be applied to them.

Don't get me wrong, cans rock! They are the single most responsible packaging that exists, until they come up with the juice box equivalent for beer. However,not everyone has the space, particularly in a brewpub environment to accommodate.

[brewbonghm]

200,000 cans=604.25 bbl
If that's what you make in a year, then it takes a year.

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?

[einhorn]

The business side is the math

I believe that the point being made is that your turnover would have to be 3-4 times that in order to utilize that warehouse space over the entire year.

[scruz]

http://www.containerandpackaging.com/index.html

[billvelek]

snip ... The last brewery I packaged in cans had four separate packages, the great folks over at Ball we gracious enough to allow us to split orders of 198,000 odd pieces between 2 packages 50%/50%. The skids as I recall were 54"x40"x9'. so at any given time there may have been as many as 30 skids of cans which required access to all four styles. ... snip

I am sold on the idea of using cans instead of bottles -- if it is remotely feasible -- so I have a few questions.

First, someone mentioned 15 cents per can; does that include the cost of the lid, too, or is that several cents more; I could imagine that the manufacturing costs for pop-top lids might make them cost more than the can itself. So ... what are we looking at _roughly_ to seal and package a can? I realize that quantity discounts and distance for shipping rates are factors, too, but what is the typical pre-shipping cost for can and lid for, let's say, 200,000?

Second, what info needs to be on the can for brewpub purposes? I know that this will probably vary by state, but are there any federal labeling laws in that regard? Arkansas, where we are located, merely requires that beer sold in a brewpub for off-premises consumption merely be sold in a "sealed container". The only brewpub I am familiar with sells their beer in growlers and 'party-pigs', and presumeably in kegs, too, but I don't think there is a single word in our state law that says the growler or 'pigs' needs need to bear a label, so why cans? My guess is that Arkansas has no requirements. I will, of course, check the law further, but my impression is that the can is nothing more than a 'sealed container' under Arkansas law in this regard. However, I know that 'regular' commercial-brewery beer cans have a warning from the surgeon general (undoubtedly 'federal' law), so is there anything else that might apply to labeling requirements for brewpub cans?

Third, if we aren't required by some law to have certain content on the cans, can we use a basic can 'brewery' design that doesn't mention the style of beer, and then add a sticker to the can to identify each one? Though a bit chessy, I think folks would understand under the circumstances. Would that even be desireable? If not, can a 200,000 can shipment consist of 50,000 cans of four different labels (styles)? Obviously, if we brew four styles of beer and Arkansas law limits us to 500 barrels/year (as a 'brewpub'), cans would be out of the question is we would need to purchase and store 200,000 X 4 just to get started in that facet of the business; storage wouldn't seem to be that much of a problem since the bulk of a can shipment can be stored elsewhere and pallets brought to the brewpub as needed.

Thanks for any advice.

Cheers.

Bill Velek