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jjs
10-14-2008, 07:17 AM
Any ideas on Wheat bock? I am thinking about making a winter warmer with 35% wheat 2-Row and carafa making a 20 srm. Using 1056. Sounds boring as hell to me. Need some inspiration Thanks

Rosie
10-14-2008, 08:33 AM
How about adding 20% local honey. We do something similar with our Weizen strain and I love it!

Looking at it, our grain bill for this is more like 60% wheat, rest two row and some coloured.

Cheers,

jarviw
10-14-2008, 08:38 AM
I believe traditionally they only use wheat malt and munich.
throw in some light crystal if you have a sweet tooth like me.
I wouldn't swear by carafa and let it take the lead role though.

Jephro
10-14-2008, 11:49 AM
I did something similar last year, a "nut brown wheat", but threw in a bag of Malted Oats and a couple gallons of Molasses. It was a bit harsh (due to the molasses) for a few weeks but it mellowed very nicely within 3-4 weeks. The last of it is aging beautifully in a bourbon barrel, hmm i think it may be time to go get another taste.;)

pbutlert
10-14-2008, 12:29 PM
40% dark munich, 60% wheat
Perle hops
Wyeast 3068

Yum!

jjs
10-14-2008, 02:17 PM
60% Wheat? YOu using hulls on that?

pbutlert
10-15-2008, 08:55 AM
Nope. Brewed a German wheat this summer, 56.4% wheat, 97 min. lauter. 10 Bbls. Slow and steady run off, no problems.

jjs
10-15-2008, 08:58 AM
What do you think of 1056 on that. The W Bock I made at another place was too much 3068ish.Lots of banana and clove that I thaught clashed with the special malts

South County
10-15-2008, 09:55 AM
I would agree with using the higher wheat percentage in your grain bill and the use of munich malts, 60/40 wheat/munich. The rice hulls would pertain to your systems ability to lauter, bed depth to width ratio vs. grain weight on the bed (what gravity are you shooting for?), whether you have v-wire of perforated bottoms. A great deal of mash issues can also come form your mill being set too fine and the mealiness of you grain. As far as yeast strains I have not personally brewed a wheat bock (weizenbock) on the larger scale but the Wyeast site suggests the 3056 Bavarian wheat strain that handles up to 10% abv and produces the mild ester and phenolic characteristics normally associated with the style.

pbutlert
10-15-2008, 10:46 AM
I think the 1056 would work for an American-style Weisenbock, maybe 1010 if you want it to appear cloudy. But if you are going for a German style I'd use a German yeast- 3333 and 3638 may be other good choices in addition to the aforementioned 3056. Wyeast website does have a lot of good info. Good Luck!

jfulton
10-18-2008, 03:33 PM
I recently brewed a pale weizenbock at our pub with 60% wheat, pale, munich I, and a touch of biscuit, at 17 Plato, 19 IBUS. I used the White Labs Hefe IV, which was my virgin exp. with that yeast, and I really enjoy it. All things being equal, as compared to the Hefe Ale yeast, it produces less banana, with more pronounced clove. We did extensive protein rests to get lots of 4-VG, and the results are great. Pitched it at 62, held at 64 till 2/3 attenuation and let it rise to about 69. There is still banana of course, but a great balance. Super Hefeweizen is what it has been dubbed by our regulars. Try the Weihenstephan Vitus for an excellent example of a pale Weizenbock, one of my new favorite styles.

Jamie Fulton
The Covey Restaurant & Brewery
Fort Worth, TX

gitchegumee
10-19-2008, 06:33 PM
Jamie, could you please explain what happens in a protein rest to produce 4-GV. I've not heard this before. Thanks!

GFBeer
10-20-2008, 03:36 AM
Jamie, could you please explain what happens in a protein rest to produce 4-GV. I've not heard this before. Thanks!
I'm curious too, I thought to produce 4-GV you needed to be in the beta-glucan rest temperature zone around 105F (40C)?

Cheers,

jjs
10-20-2008, 07:27 AM
Yes, I thaught that 4 GV was just a yeast thing

jfulton
10-20-2008, 01:47 PM
Sorry to be so vague... 4VG (4-vinyl guaiacol) IS a product of fermentation. However to create significant amounts of 4VG, you need the precursor to this compound, ferulic acid, the bonds of which are broken from pentosanes in grain at temps of around 45 C. You will get some ferulic acid without doing a rest in this temperature zone, but I have found through experience and conversation with other brewers, that this rest will enhance the amount of 4VG created. Hope that helps.

Jamie Fulton
The Covey Restaurant & Brewery
Fort Worth, TX

ěl-sheik
12-05-2008, 02:23 AM
Yes, I thaught that 4 GV was just a yeast thing

jfulton describes one aspect of 4-Vinylguajacol production when he talkes about the decarboxylation of it out of ferulic acid and how you get it into the wort by holding the right rest (44 C). Interesting is here furthermore that barley malt contains more ferulic acid then wheat malt. While again wheat malt is a lot less flavorless in the finish product then barley malt. High amounts of wheat malt makes a lot of space for the flavors contributed by the yeast to shine through.

But the choice of yeast strain ( bavarian hefeweizen yeast) has a significantly higher effect on the 4-Vinylguajacol level in your beer, then mashing or grist load. It will go up or down by 50% when changing yeast strains and keeping the substrate. I am not aware of a direct effect of fermentation temperature on the 4-Vinylguajacol level but an increased amount of Iso-amylacetat (banana) and 2-Methylbutylacetat (pear+banana) (caused by higher fermentation temp) may overpower the clove flavor.

Lower pitching rates will aswell result in higher amounts of esthers in the beer. Remember 4-Vinylguajacol is an alcohol not an esther. Furthermore does higher static pressure on the yeast cell result in less 4-Vinylguajacol, so the fermentaion vessel and repitching out of cylindroconical fermenters has an impact too!

Try to get it in the balance you want :-)

jason.koehler
01-12-2009, 06:56 PM
jfulton describes one aspect of 4-Vinylguajacol production when he talkes about the decarboxylation of it out of ferulic acid and how you get it into the wort by holding the right rest (44 C). Interesting is here furthermore that barley malt contains more ferulic acid then wheat malt. While again wheat malt is a lot less flavorless in the finish product then barley malt. High amounts of wheat malt makes a lot of space for the flavors contributed by the yeast to shine through.

But the choice of yeast strain ( bavarian hefeweizen yeast) has a significantly higher effect on the 4-Vinylguajacol level in your beer, then mashing or grist load. It will go up or down by 50% when changing yeast strains and keeping the substrate. I am not aware of a direct effect of fermentation temperature on the 4-Vinylguajacol level but an increased amount of Iso-amylacetat (banana) and 2-Methylbutylacetat (pear+banana) (caused by higher fermentation temp) may overpower the clove flavor.

Lower pitching rates will aswell result in higher amounts of esthers in the beer. Remember 4-Vinylguajacol is an alcohol not an esther. Furthermore does higher static pressure on the yeast cell result in less 4-Vinylguajacol, so the fermentaion vessel and repitching out of cylindroconical fermenters has an impact too!

Try to get it in the balance you want :-)

What are some flavor descriptors used for 4VG? My Siebel resources from previous classes don't have much to say on it, nor any brewing books I have about.

kai
01-13-2009, 12:57 PM
What are some flavor descriptors used for 4VG?

Clovey and delicious.

jason.koehler
01-13-2009, 04:05 PM
Ahhh, so that's what it's really called! I should have known that but somehow missed it...I guess I just don't like weizen enough to care ;)

Thanks!

ěl-sheik
01-15-2009, 01:00 AM
Ahhh...I guess I just don't like weizen enough to care ;)


Do you like Vanilla? then give your Weizen some time ;-)

In this study the decrease of 4-vinylguaiacol (4VG) during beer aging was investigated and the products that arise from it were identified. Two compounds, vanillin and apocynol, were identified in beer model solutions after forced aging and in naturally aged beers by GC-MS and HPLC-ECD analyses. Both account for up to 85% of the decrease of 4VG. Only in the presence of substantial amounts of oxygen in the bottle headspace was vanillin detected. Apocynol [4-(1-hydroxyethyl)-2-methoxyphenol] was found to be the main degradation product, and its formation was shown to be highly dependent on the beer pH. Because both apocynol and vanillin have a clear vanilla-like aroma, the decrease of 4-vinylguaiacol during beer aging might impart a shift from a clove-like aroma in fresh specialty beers (such as wheat beers and other top-fermented blond or dark ales) to a sweeter, more vanilla-like flavor impression of aged specialty beers.

from: Journal of agricultural and food chemistry. 2008 Dec

wiredgourmet
01-15-2009, 09:18 PM
JJS, why do you say your recipe sounds boring? I think you could make a spectacular winter warmer with it. I might go 60% 2-row pils, 40% wheat, and maybe a yeast in the 66-72% attenuation range for a little residual sweetness.

Boil well for a little caramelisation. Shoot for about 21+P. Kind of a blond/amber bock; it sounds great to me. Assertive bitterness, but zero to not much hop aroma, I think. You'll need a good protein rest unless you really want it cloudy, which I would not, and I'd stay away from estery-phenolic weizen/hefe strains which are better suited to more attenuated and/or lower gravity brews. A more mild, "bready" yeast would suit it better, IMHO.

Done right, this could be a little masterpiece. More technique and fewer ingredients: I find that works better than the converse. Simple is good, but of course, simple and easy are not the same :)

fatty_matty
03-05-2009, 06:35 AM
Just been reading through this thread again and thought I'd say that we've just brewed a weizen bock today.

The only difference is that we've used 100% malted wheat - pale, dunkel and cara - and nothing else i.e. enzymes etc. The mash was damn thick and took longer rests but it's worked out.

Just wanted to let anyone know that if they're thinking of doing one it is possible!

wiredgourmet
03-05-2009, 06:47 AM
Sounds really tasty. No lautering nightmares?

fatty_matty
03-05-2009, 07:08 AM
We have a strange setup here with an old school mash filter, most of the time we curse it. It blocked slightly at the begining but slowed things down, give the mash a right good mixing and everything went smoothly

It usually takes a grist load of 250 - 275kg but today it was over 400kg, which is a good test for our brewhouse!