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  • Bottling pressure & co2 absorbtion

    Hi
    I'm trying to opperate a H&K 25 head filler( no pre-evac), I have 15psi in the beer 1c temp & 30psi head pressure. if I have more co2 absorbed say 17 psi does that mean my head pressure should incress?
    Mike
    MIKE S

  • #2
    If I am understanding your question correctly, the answer is, probably not. If fill levels are consistent at 30psi head, there is no need to change. As long as head pressure is above your temp/pressure vol/vol ratio, you will not lose a lot of carbonation to the fill.

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    • #3
      thank you,
      this is what I thought, but if the beer foams in the bottle as they come off the line do I up the pressure a little?
      MIKE S

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      • #4
        Tour bottles should foam just a little as they come out of the filler, so that the head space is filled with CO2, not air. The bubbles should be fine, not coarse. Fine bubbles are indicative of CO2 generated foam, the coarse bubbles tend to contain more oxygen.

        At the temperatures you are filling, if the beer in the bowl is genuinely only about 1 or 2 deg C you should be able to use a lower top pressure than 30 psi, probably closer to 15 psi for beers with CO2 content up to 2.5 v/v (5 g / litre). The higher the bowl pressure, the more likely you are to break bottles, and the harder it is to snift off the excess pressure and obtain consistent fill heights.

        Cheers
        dick

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        • #5
          Mike,

          The filling process on all lines is different. Are you using an actual CO2 tester? Head pressures do not tell much. If you are saying you have 15psi absorbed at 1C, that is higher than 3 volumes of CO2 which is highly unlikely.

          That said, if it is foaming problems you are having, there can be many causes. We run an 12 head SMB here. The first is temperature, whether it be atmospheric or the actual temperature of the beer. Put a thermometer in a bottle coming off the filler. If you are above 2C, you could possibly be having issues. If it is not a temperature issue, it might be a pressure differential problem between the bottle gas and the bowl gas. We have a bias pressure valve on our line which which dictates the differential between the bottle and bowl. We can usually dial this in to obtain a proper FOB. The next issue is the snift. If your snift is too fast, this is also a cause of too much foaming.

          If it is an actual CO2 problem you are having (low CO2 in solution) you need to actually test this with a CO2 tester, before and after. If you have a 25 head filler, you should definitely have CO2 testing equipment.

          Hope this helps,
          JZ

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          • #6
            thank you ,
            you have all helped me alot. You have basically covered what I have been through, Temp, pressure, absorbtion etc...
            I think my main problem is a brewery owner who wants things perfect yesterday.
            I did a bottle run without him around & applied all the principles you guys have been suggesting & it all went perfectly, even trippled our speed but the capper would not keep up because it sent more upside down crown seals than ones the right way up,
            if anyone has an answer to this problem I'd be over the moon.
            Theres nothing like incressing production when the know alls are'nt around.
            MIKE S

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            • #7
              GOOD TO SEE YOU GOT THINGS MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. BOTTLING CAN BE VERY STRESSFUL.

              AS WE MADE CHANGES IN BOTTLING PROCEDURES HERE, WE ALSO FOUND THE WEAK LINK TO BE THE CAPPER. IN OUR CASE IT APPEARS TO BE JUST POOR DESIGN. IF YOU ARE HAVING ISSUES WITH CAPS NOT GOING DOWN THE SHOOT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, YOU PROBABLY JUST NEED TO MAKE A SMALL ADJUSTMENT. IF YOU SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE AS THE MANUFACTURER, YOU SHOULD TALK TO THEM DIRECTLY ON YOUR SPECIFIC CAPPER. IF THERE IS NO SUPPORT, THE BEST SUGGESTION I HAVE WOULD BE TO STUDY WHAT HAPPENS AT SLOW SPEEDS THAT LAYS THE CAPS DOWN PROPERLY. AS YOU SPEED YOUR LINE UP KEEP YOUR EYE ON IT. I AM GUESSING YOU WILL SEE EXACTLY WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS. IT WILL PROBABLY TAKE A WHILE TO FIND YOUR PROBLEM, BUT EVENTUALLY YOU SHOULD. YOU WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO BE CREATIVE IN SOLVING THE PROBLEM. IT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING IS OUT OF PLACE OR JUST MISSING.

              BE CAREFUL.

              HOPE THIS HELPS,
              JONATHAN ZANGWILL, HEAD BREWER
              FLYING FISH BREWING CO

              Comment


              • #8
                Mike, I was wondering what generation machine your 25 spout H&K is? Is the crown sorter a vertical or horizontal rotating plate feeding the cap chute?

                I have seen a number of different systems on Krones and Italian crowners but I have not seen any H&K's. I have been told the older H&K machines have a V shaped crown invertor/combiner below the sorting plate that allows crowns that are properly oriented to drop down one slot while opposite crowns are directed through an invertor and then recombined with the other chute.

                I spoke with an H&K parts rep in Canada that mentioned that crown depth and profile has changed over recent years (lightweighting, material change) and the older machines suffer from the extra space in the combiner and chute. Of course, every mechanic has a different answer and you tend to find some interesting shim and welding jobs to solve these space problems.

                If you have a serial number for the machine I can probably get him to look up the particulars or if you have an H&K service guy there, I would suggest a conversation or two. You want the rotation speed on face plate to be as low as possible (enough to provide an adequate supply of crowns) because of cap damage and cap dust build up which breeds bacteria build up but you may not have any control over the drive speed.

                It sounds like your invertor is not working at all but hopefully by the time you read this, you have resolved the problem.

                Cheers -Rob-

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