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  • good at server, foamy at tap

    I have doing some research on this and to bee honest Im finding more bad info than good, and alot of info overkill. So I thought to bring the issue to people who do it all the time.

    I simply want to add a bit more carbonation to a few of my beers. Not necessarily head retention which can be achieved by adding some wheat for proteins, but actual carbonation. Example, using a Zohm Bottle I want to serve IPA and Wit at 2.8 volumes of CO2 versus my Porter at 2.3 and my Pale at 2.5, etc.

    The issue is it seems if I carbonate longer in order to achieve the higher level of CO2, when the beer gets poured at the bar it’s too foamy. Im not sure if I need to increase/decrease the serving pressure (im thinking increase), but there are plenty of commercial beers that are packaged in kegs at different pressures yet dispensed at random bars with the same serving pressure for all their beers, yet the beers are fine.

    Im just tired of flat looking beers with thin heads, or worse yet, I don’t like the presentation when I see a beer being served to one of my brew pub guests with no head. But I also dont want to waste a lot of beer via foam down the drain. Lord knows bartenders do enough of that on thier own!

    Any insights to how to resolve this would be great. Thanks.

    Frank
    "Uncle" Frank
    Frank Fermino
    Brewer I, Redhook, Portsmouth, NH
    Writer, Yankee Brew News, New England
    Wise-ass, Everywhere, Always

  • #2
    Hey Frank The Tank,

    Not to throw bartenders under the bus...though some days that is a fun game, have you thought about:

    1) your glassware is not being cleaned properly,thus being left with residual oil,wax,dirt,gunk ect that is causing your beer to be flat with no head

    2) the beers aren't being poored properly
    Cheers,
    Mike Roy
    Brewmaster
    Franklins Restaurant, Brewery & General Store
    5123 Baltimore Ave
    Hyattsville,MD 20781
    301-927-2740

    Franklinsbrewery.com
    @franklinsbrwry
    facebook.com/franklinsbrewery

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    • #3
      What temp are the beers at the tap when poured? It could be an issue with line run and/or co2 nucleation from a temp increase by the time the beer hits the glass (as your title says good at server, foamy at tap). It make take more pressure at the tank to maintain co2, however depending on your turn over rate you may find the beers may over carbonate as well. Sometimes a longer choker lead helps too.

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      • #4
        Hey Frank,

        Your draught system was probably designed for a specific carbonation level, say 2.4 or 2.5 volumes. If your beers are all at the same temperature and the draught lines are the same, your highly-carbonated beers will be foamy no matter what you do with the pressure. You'll probably need a temporary way of adding resistance; one method is to add some some 3/16" ID tubing to the line in question. The Brewers Association's Draught Beer Quality Manual has some tables and calculations that'll help you figure out how much to add:



        Are you serving from kegs or serving tanks? Most serving tanks are only rated to 15 psig, so you may be gambling with more than your presentation by trying to serve beers at 2.8 volumes (I prefer proper serving temperatures over style-appropriate CO2 levels).

        Joe

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        • #5
          Originally posted by BMXFRANK
          Im just tired of flat looking beers with thin heads, or worse yet, I don’t like the presentation when I see a beer being served to one of my brew pub guests with no head. But I also dont want to waste a lot of beer via foam down the drain.
          Frank,

          My suggestion for you would be - rather than further carbonation - to nitrogenate, ie. a level of dissolved nitrogen in your beer.

          This will give you a tight, creamy head without having excess CO2 'bite' and will help maintain the head during drinking, giving you good lacing down the glass.

          You don't need to aim for massive levels - around 10ppm will work just fine without your beer coming from the tap looking like Guinness!

          Doubtless you will need to do a bit of experimenting to get a system that works for you. If you nitrogenate in brite tank, make sure you keep top pressure up (preferably with a blend of CO2 and N2) so you don't lose CO2 at the same time as adding nitrogen.

          PM me if you need any more info.

          Comment


          • #6
            thanks

            Excellent suggestions all of you. To clarify for those that asked, my beer is filtered at 36 and the non-jacketed serving tanks are in a cold room at about 42-44. Beer comes out 44-45. All same temps and lines, I have no way to control that. I have looked at glassware too. This happens in both good and not so good glass. We are using beer gas to push so a bit more pressure I dont think will over carb the beers, and I move through beer at a good pace. O-fest has been moving at 6-7 bbls every 9-10 days, but thats fast. Anyway, I will look at some of these and if anyone has any more ideas, feel free to toss 'em out there. And thanks for the manual link. Thats awesome and it gives me something to read over the next few nights. Thanks.
            Last edited by bmxfrank; 10-23-2009, 01:23 PM.
            "Uncle" Frank
            Frank Fermino
            Brewer I, Redhook, Portsmouth, NH
            Writer, Yankee Brew News, New England
            Wise-ass, Everywhere, Always

            Comment


            • #7
              Hey Frank,
              I don't have a chart in front of me but 2.8 vols @ 44-45 will require a great deal of pressure to keep dissolved. I think in a pub environment with craft beers and non-rated tanks anything over 2.4-2.5 is asking for trouble not really needed and maybe even counter productive. If I remember right don't you have two draft towers? That can complicate things also, though you have relatively short runs. Not to jump on the bandwagon but bartenders can and will kill the most perfectly prepared beers. Getting them onboard is the best thing you can do. I second the recommendation of the BA's draft beer manual- it's very well done.

              Cheers,
              Geoff
              Geoff DeBisschop
              Evolution Craft Brewing Company
              Delmar, DE

              Comment


              • #8
                If you're pushing a 2.8 volume product with beer gas (70/30 N2/CO2 mix), your counterpressure on your tank would need to be very high (>50 psi) to ease the foaming that's happening. The other thing you want to think about is either a flow control faucet/tap, or an inline flow control prior to dispense tap/faucet. Either flow control methods, given proper counterpressure, will ease your problem.

                You may want to think about a different gas blend, if available, to allow you to decrease your counterpressure to a more reasonable range. Your gas suppler or draft services tech should be able to help you with appropriate balancing.

                Pax.

                Liam
                Liam McKenna
                www.yellowbellybrewery.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you're using 70/30 mix gas (as above) then you will be losing CO2 from your beer, which explains why it is serving flat.

                  The 'problem' is that CO2 doesn't "see" N2 pressure and N2 doesn't "see" CO2 pressure, so it doesn't matter how much you put on, your beer will always keep losing CO2.

                  Each gas will only stabilize when its partial pressure in the headspace/freeboard is equal to the mole fraction of that gas dissolved in the beer (Henry's Law & Dalton's Law if you want the scientific explanation!)

                  So, assuming you have only CO2 in your beer, ie. no N2, you will need to use 100% CO2 to prevent this.

                  According to my old DOS program here, you should need 17psig of 100% CO2 to maintain 2.8 vol.

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                  • #10
                    Frank,

                    I had Micro Matic do a draft class at the brewery back in July. I'll drop off the books they made for us, really informative, an extension of the BA one. I also have a BA book if you need it.

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