Hot break in fermenter - Effect on taste

[ParishBrewingCo]

I am trying to pinpoint and eliminate a particular taste from one of my wheat beers. It is a nutty bitterness that can be slightly phenolic and tannic and a bit more harsh than I want. It is a completely unfiltered, unfined american wheat. My theory is that I'm getting the flavor from hot break material when the yeast get ahold of it. I definitely get some hot break into the fermenter, which I'm working to eliminate. Anyone have any opinion on what hot break (hops, etc) contributes to the flavor when carried over into fermentation?

I will be modifying the kettle to better seperate the trub/break from the wort but I'm hoping someone here has some experience with the effect I should expect.

Cheers and thanks.

Andrew

[jvandenbrink]

Hot break...

Andrew -
My hunch is that it isn't hot break, but instead it is actual tannins from the grain you are using. What is your sparge temp? Keep it below 168. Also, don't oversparge. I try to keep my final plato above 2.5. If it dips below I have noticed some strange nutty taste in the beer.

Just my 2 cents.

Joel

[ParishBrewingCo]

Joel thanks for the input. I batch sparge twice. pH of sparge water is 7.2. I measure the pH leaving the mash at < 6. My sparge temp is 160. I hope what I'm getting isn't from the grain. One thing I haven't measured is the gravity of the final runnings, but again I'm batch sparging so it isn't that low.

[seattlefng]

I'm going to agree with Joel. A phenolic note seems likely to come from mash/sparge issues. With no dark grains an alkaline water supply can easily bump the pH and extract tannins. While pH of the water is important, carbonate levels (obviously related to pH) may be more important. A water report could prove useful.

Trub carryover can contribute to phenolic and other harsh flavors, but I think you would find some 'soapy/goaty' flavors first which can turn to harsh flavors with oxidation of the fatty acids.

There is some room for argument, but casting out clear worts is a good general practice, IMO.

-josh

[ParishBrewingCo]

You guys have me questioning my sparge water pH and sparge runnings pH. I need to investigate. I may have to drop the pH of the sparge water further. I already use lactic acid to drop it from near 8 to 7.2. This has been fine for the darker malt beers. Thanks for the input.

Andrew

[Woolsocks]

I'm also pointing at your mash/sparge pH. The pH of your liquor (mash and sparge) is not very important, as it doesn't really influence the pH of your mash and runnings. What IS important is the mineral content and residual alkalinity of your water and the acidity of your malt.

It's a homebrew site, but this is the most concise, easy-to-understand info on mash chemistry I've seen: http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html

The other thing I'd think about looking at is whether, when batch sparging, you're "squishing" the grain bed and thus squeezing out tannins. Maybe do a conventional sparge once for comparison.

[gdebisschop]

You may be getting this flavor from the yeast itself- it can certainly contribute a "bite" to beer flavor. I wouldn't sweat the sparge- Michael Lewis did some flavor panels where they found it took sparge temps above 174 or 175 to contribute negative flavors. 160 sounds real low! Temps that low may actually be adversly affecting viscosity in lautering, compacting the bed and creating channeling and breakthroughs that really may affect tannins in the finished product.

Ultimately, are you getting this flavor in your other products? If not, what is different? Is this the only unfiltered product? If this is the only beer with the problem it is most likely a post-brewhouse issue, such as yeast in suspension.

cheers
geoff

[zachjenny]

hot break

Have you considered the specific hops used for this beer or the quantities contributing this harshness? In my opinion, especially in wheat beers, some hops, depending on the variety can really add the character your describing. I may be oversimplifying your problem, but that's where i'd look first.

[ParishBrewingCo]

Brewed a few batches this weekend and measured pH diligently at every step and found the pH to be too alkaline during the sparge. My technique has been to adjust the water used for sparging to 7.2. When adding that to the grains to get 2nd runnings (I batch sparge) the pH in the mash tun was at 6. I usually do a 3rd batch sparge and that would be significantly over 6. The buffer capacity of this light grain bill just wasnt enough to keep the pH down. I will adjust my water differently and get lower pHs and in a few weeks we'll see what it does to the beer. I feel pretty confident now it is a pH issue.