Need for HLT in a 3bbl system?

[TPBC]

We are in the early phases of planning and ordering equipment for our brewpub. We decided to go with a system from Premier Stainless as it fit our budget and needs. We recently placed an order and are building out our pub as we wait for the equipment.

This is a start up operation (first brewpub, but our 4th pub), taking that next step up from homebrewing. Because of this a lot of this professional equipment is very new to me. Please bare with me on this. While consulting with Premier about what we needed a HLT was an optional purchase. Essentially they told us that if we had another means for hot water we didn't need it. For us using the money for another fermenter seemed more logical at the time.

At this point we are trying to decide on what to go with. We can purchase a 100 gallon comercial hot water heater, and put it up to 180 degrees. The only downfall is that as we use the water, cold water would be entering the tank and slowly dropping the temperature and might be lower then 170 when the time comes to sparge. Also, I'm assuming we would have to mix it with colder water to hit the exact mash temps we are looking for, as we can't adjust the output temp. Which might be a bit of a pain and very depending on the cold water temp.

Another option we are considering is a tankless hot water heater. The benefit to this is that we can dial the exact temp we want. However, the flow rate is only 2-3 gal/min. I can see filling up the tank for mashing not really being an issue, but I don't think I can sparge with the output flow rate being so slow.

I've heard of some other people using the fermenter as a temporary HLT, which might work, but I'm not sure how well it will hold temp if we fill it up with 180 degree water from a tankless.

At this point I'm hoping to get some suggestions, or thoughts on what to do. I'm sure there are some other small systems out there that implement some type of Non-HLT system.

Thanks in advance.

[BonedaleBeer]

Hi TPBC,

We have a 3BBL system without a HLT. In order to get enough hot water for mash-in and sparge, we use a combination of a large hot water heater and our kettle.
I heat our mash water in the kettle the last 10 degrees or so for mash-in to nail that temp, then use the water from the Hot water heater (turned up to 11), that is in series with another small HWH so cold water does not enter the big HWH reducing the temp. Not the best solution, but it works for now.

You can use tankless HWH in series as well to maintain your required flow rate, and dialed to the right temp. These need to be a commerical-grade unit (typ) in order to get them up past 140 or so.

[CopperKettle]

We are using the 3BBL premier stainless system and use a tankless water heater with no HLT. Unfortunately we only installed a water heater that went up to 160F so we have to use the boil kettle as a 2nd water heating step. We are looking into adding a 2nd water heater in series that will take the water up to 180F.

[chaser]

you can heat up the water in the kettle, mash in off that, pump the rest of the water into a fermenter and sparge off that. I used to send the water into the fermenter at just below boiling, and by the end of the sparge it was still above 180. so holding heat shouldn't be an issue. if you have a separate whirlpool you can also use that in the same way. we had an hlt, but we had to do this to have enough water to brew 4 batches a day. worked fine for me.

[TPBC]

Thanks for the response's! definitely gives me some insight and options.

copper kettle - Are you able to sparge right off the tankless with the output flowrate? I have looked into some tankless systems from Rinnai and they can go up to 185 with a controller, but again that is only at about 2 maybe 3 gallons per minute depending on input water temperature.

Bondale - I have heard of people using a tankless as a booster before the comerical tank. So i might do that route. But, I hadn't thought of using a smaller tank. What size tank do you for the smaller one (I'm assuming you have a 100 gal large tank)

Chaser - thats a good idea, definitly will consider that as well. 4 batches a day is crazy! I thought that we'd maybe get up to 2 per day eventually, never imagined 4. How long is your brew day when you do 4 batches on that size of a system?

[gitchegumee]

HLT is the cheapest tank you can buy. Do it. Tankless heaters are inefficient. The heat of brewing is not recovered with these other methods. That's why all larger breweries have a HLT. Go green, get a tank. Don't compromise your techniques.

[dick murton]

I agree with the last comment. Even if you don't have a heat exchanger such that you recover hot water for the following brew or cleaning, it is a pain in the backside both in time required to tweak everything and cost of heating to not have a hot liquor tank. Size you tank for at least 1.2 times your nominal water usage for mashing and sparging, allowing for for water to be retained in the spent grain. The extra volume is because you never get 100 % heat recovery, and always want a little extra for preheating mash tuns, rinsing stuff out etc. Insulate the hot liquor tank properly and install a thermostatic top up heater so that the water can be heated up to sparge temperature + 2 deg C, to allow for losses on the way through to the MT.

[monkeybrewer]

I have a 7bbl with no HLT

Ditto what Chaser said...works great and pasteurizes your fermenter before each use. You'll just run into timing issues if you ever want to do two brews in a row (ie you need to finish one brew completely before you can start heating up the water for the next).
Cheers

[CaptainEBC]

We have a 3BBL Premier system and we use a Rinnai r98hpi tankless water heater with the commercial controller that goes to 185F. The flow is about 4gpm at 185 and a flows faster at lower temps. We do a runoff at 1.5 GPM, so the heater would be enough to keep up with that, but we put an insulated tank in to hold the hot water for acidification and mineral additions.

Having a tankless heater also allows us to spray 185F water out of a hose for cleaning purposes. Just make sure the hose is rated for 185+ or else it bursts and sprays everyone with scalding water, which really sucks.

Here is a model of our setup:

http://www.enegrenbrewing.com/3bbl-craft-brewery/

[Bierkoenig]

Tankless heaters are inefficient.

What makes you say that? My tankless heaters are rated 84% efficient. I can't heat water in my kettle with that kind of efficiency.

[Graydon]

Hot Tanks

I believe Gitchegumee was considering that the energy recovered from the heat exchanger is lost when only using an on demand system.

Cheers
Graydon

Oh what is the Gitchegumee mean or about?

[TPBC]

Thanks for adding some more insight on this.

I was looking into the rc98hpi. Seems like it would be a good choice based on others with a similar system.

I can also incorporate what chaser and monkey brewer are doing.

From what I understand the tankless would be the most energy efficient way for us to do this as well. While I can't recover, The initial heating process is is more efficient, and we won't be doing much back to back brewing initially. We can always can add one later when we order more fermenters for expanding.

Right now the cost of a tankless is less then half of a HLT and it doesn't take up space in by brewery as well.

[chaser]

We have a 3BBL Premier system and we use a Rinnai r98hpi tankless water heater with the commercial controller that goes to 185F. The flow is about 4gpm at 185 and a flows faster at lower temps. We do a runoff at 1.5 GPM, so the heater would be enough to keep up with that, but we put an insulated tank in to hold the hot water for acidification and mineral additions.

Having a tankless heater also allows us to spray 185F water out of a hose for cleaning purposes. Just make sure the hose is rated for 185+ or else it bursts and sprays everyone with scalding water, which really sucks.

Here is a model of our setup:

http://www.enegrenbrewing.com/3bbl-craft-brewery/

How do you get enough pressure to spray? I haven't tried it but my rinnai seems way to slow to effectively spray anything.

TPBC- was a 16 hour day on the 15 bbl system. 18 on the 30 bbl. split between two people obviously. main difference in time was the cip took a little bit longer on the bigger system, and we added a few minutes here and there with the vorlauf times, whirlpool rest, etc. This industry is crazy with it's growth, you'll be there faster than you know it.

[gitchegumee]

Graydon, you are correct. Tankless heaters are very inefficient with respect to energy input to a brewery. Consider that a 3 bbl brewery has to heat near 4 bbl of water from tap temperature to brew with a tankless heater. Now calculate the additional heat required for a HLT filled with 80C water from knockout. Very little. Enormous difference. Lots of energy. What do all you folks with a heater do with all that hot water from knockout? Seems to me not only a waste of heat/energy, but also of water. Both of which are precious commodities. As for the rated efficiency of your tankless heaters: Electric models are very near 100% efficient at turning electricity to hot liquor heat. Gas models maybe 85% at turning potential chemical energy to hot liquor heat. Usually less. Depends on how you do the calculations. Regardless of this tankless heater efficiency and how you calculate it, using the hot water recovered from knockout to brew your next beer is far and away the most efficient use of heat in the brewhouse. Everyone want to be green, right?

[CDangerBrew]

I also operate a 3bbl with no HLT. Immediately after run-off (while wort is coming to a boil), I clean out the mash tun to collect KO water. It is a pain, but well worth the effort in saving 170 degree water.