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  • Auto Analyzers

    hola...anyone have experience with using any of the auto beer analyzers out there? Any recommendations or words of caution?

    thanks.

  • #2
    Happy to advise, but which particular analyzers?

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    • #3
      thx KWLSD:

      at this point any info is good info.

      i have been looking at a range of them including:

      Anton Paar DMA models & DSA models
      FermetoFlash and FermentoStar (i know one has been replaced by the other)
      Kyoto WBA-505
      open to suggestions of other models

      seems to be a big difference in price and capabilities. trying to see if a good balance between the two exist.

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      • #4
        Beer Analyzer

        Had experience withe Anton Paar DMA 48 at the Schneider Weisse Quality Control Lab, and will recommend it depending on the size of your brewery and the daily wort or bottled beer samples that are analyzed.
        Excellent equipment to work with, requires good care because it is expensive however you can obtain the following information of the samples that are analyzed:

        pH
        Color
        Density
        Apparent Extract
        Alcohol (ABV and ABW)
        Degree Plato or Original Gravity
        Degree of Attenuation

        Before every wort or beer sample that was ready for analysis the CO2 was taken out and filtered.

        Hope the information is useful.

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        • #5
          Okay, here goes:

          Anton Paar make a number of instruments which have brewing applications:

          Density - DMA35 (portable), DMA 48/58 (now superceded but still excellent machines), DMA4100/4500/5000.

          They also make:
          - CarboQC for CO2 & air/N2, which is also portable and a good operator-friendly machine
          - Alcolyzer for abv analysis. Can be linked to some DMA units and to the CarboQC

          The Kyoto system you mention is a combined density/refractive index system. I know several brewers who use them and swear by them. Again their systems are good, solid workhorses and can last for years.

          I haven't experienced the FermentoFlash/FermentoStar so can't comment.

          Depending on what parameters you are looking to analyse for, likely number of samples and (of course!) budget, there are suitable options.

          My advice would be to go for good, second-user kit as most lab instruments tend to be looked after well (those that aren't are obvious by their condition!). That way you don't have to factor-in the often high depreciation.

          There are some analyses that are better done in a lab environment, others that lend themselves to being done in the brewery. As a rough guide, from personal experience/preference:

          Lab - abv, colour, bitterness, pH, detergent strength, all microbiology

          Plant - dissolved oxygen, CO2

          Either - density/gravity

          Not an exhaustive list and I'm sure others here will add, change

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          • #6
            It depends on "for official alcohol purposes or not". If you are looking for official/accepted alcohol values then you need to go the 45K route and get an Anton Paar DMA5000/and Alcolyzer (We do not use an Alcolyzer Plus - too many things to go wrong). However, the less expensive instrumetns (less number of decimals in readings) for routine (non-offical) work would be OK. I am trying to move people away from hydrometers to more the DMA35 handheld units but some instructions for their best use are not available from the manufactuer. We can assist with more info. on that route and instructions if you would like to contact us. We did a lot of research into the DMA5000/Alcolyzer and found out about all the algorithms it uses as many folks do not fully understand what it reports and where it's results can be misinterpreted. Scott Bruslind at Analysis Labs is the only other fellow we would trust that really understands how it works also. If you know Scott he would also be able to assist in answering your questions.

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            • #7
              I can't comment on US duty analysis, but here in the UK it works quite simply:

              Distillation is the 'standard method' (ie. as used for verification purposes by HMRC) and is always the final arbiter; however they are happy for brewers to use any method they wish, PROVIDING they can demonstrate it is accurate when compared to distillation.

              I agree with Gary that for routine density measurement the DMA35 is a great little unit and we, too, have done a lot of work into getting the best out of them.

              Other than Alcolyzer, there is also refractometer/density (as mentioned earlier) which is an excellent method with straightforward verification processes.

              Another alternative - and one that isn't often mentioned here - is gas chromatography; a good second-user GC can be picked up for a decent price and they're simple to use.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by KWLSD
                Another alternative - and one that isn't often mentioned here - is gas chromatography; a good second-user GC can be picked up for a decent price and they're simple to use.
                One thing to note is that most GC I've seen available are designed to use lab-grade hydrogen as a carrier gas. The stuff is not cheap to buy in bottles, so if you are thinking of going this route I would definitely look into acquiring a hydrogen generator if you are going to be running a lot of analysis.

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                • #9
                  We've got 2 5000s with alcolyzers and they're great. The color function is merely a suggestion but other than that, worth every penny. Get the autosampler. Most guys recommend aginst it, but in four years we've had zero issues and it's great to load up 26 fermenter samples and push "go", and come back to it later.

                  We've got a Perkin-Elmer GC too, just for VDK. We get reliable, believable numbers but I can 't say it's worth the $60K. We only have one guy who knows how to use it since it's so involved and standard prep is a PITA. We still use it on every tank, though.

                  Just ordered an A-P HPLC, too...still haven't even unpacked it yet.

                  D

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                  • #10
                    Forgot we've got the CarboQC too, but I don't really know anything about t, never had to use it yet. It lives in the bottleshop QA lab.

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                    • #11
                      Darel - yes, VDK is a bit involved, especially making standards,as I recall!

                      abv on a GC is much simpler as it doesn't require any internal standards in samples, just a known ethanol soln. for calibration and before/after each sample batch.

                      Drop me a PM if you want to know anything about the CarboQC from a hands-on perspective as I've spent a good few years using, calibrating & repairing them.

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                      • #12
                        For what it is worth, I have recently commissioned systems using in line instruments, in the UK of course, for blending systems, using Anton Paar alcohol / PG analysers, Orbisphere optical oxygen sensors, Anton Paar CO2 meters, with conductivity meters for interface detection and residual detergent detction. These are systems blending and carbonating high gravity beer directly to the fillers.

                        They continue to use off line analysis for pH (mainly due to unacceptable risk of glass if one breaks) though also because at the time of installation, the instruments available were prone to damage by the CIP conditions, and it wasn't felt necessary to monitor pH continuously as there were conductivity meters in the system. Colour - similarly, no benefit from monitoring continuously.
                        dick

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