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Peracetic acid pools in FV?

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  • Peracetic acid pools in FV?

    Howdy,
    I've got 2 new FV's and have a CIP sprayball attached from which I want to sanitise the insides prior to fermenting with Peracetic acid. There is a drain in the middle of the base of each, but the bottoms are not dished, just flat.
    The result is that after draining, a small amount of liquid is always left around the drain hole. I'm worried about filling the FV's with wort if a little acid is left behind and feel I ought to try to rinse it away. Trouble is, that will mean the tanks aren't as sanitary - right?
    Anyone had this problem?
    Thanks in advance.

  • #2
    Hot rinse with Hot Liquor. I do it as a part of our cleaning, in the morning hot rinse the destination tank, let it cool down, turn on glycol, fill with yeast and wort.
    Joel Halbleib
    Partner / Zymurgist
    Hive and Barrel Meadery
    6302 Old La Grange Rd
    Crestwood, KY
    www.hiveandbarrel.com

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    • #3
      Brewinlou is right, that is a good solution.... but I would have to ask a) how much is "a small amount" are we talking ounces, pints, gallons? and, b) in what volume of tank? 4 or 5 oz of dilute santi in a 60bbl tank is a lot different than a pint or so in a 2bbl tank...

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      • #4
        Thanks for the responses. There isn't a lot of liquid in there, the tank is 300L (80galls) and I guess there is half a cup left behind after it empties spread over the bottom.
        I know it isn't much but I was wondering about how the PAA breaks down - or more to the point how long before filling with wort should it be drained?

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        • #5
          You could try purging the tank with a little CO2 or N2 to remove the residual PAA.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by BrewinLou
            Hot rinse with Hot Liquor. I do it as a part of our cleaning, in the morning hot rinse the destination tank, let it cool down, turn on glycol, fill with yeast and wort.
            But is your hot liquor sanitary? I've always been taught (and practiced) that you don't do any rinsing after a no-rinse sanitizer, as this defeats the sanitation cycle. I wouldn't trust what comes out of any hot liquor tank as the final liquid to touch the FV before the wort does. Just me though.

            As far as removing excess PAA, I would also recommend the CO2 purge method. Build a little pressure and then release to try and blow that little bit of left over PAA out. Although, I seriously doubt you need to worry about half a cup.

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            • #7
              I may be wrong, but the ecolabs PAA I used would degrade after 24 hours, once the stabilizers were diluted. I'd like a confirmation if someone else has had this experience.

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              • #8
                I've been told that PAA sterilants degrade after 24 hours too, but after testing day-old solutions with peracetic indicator strips I've been inclined to disagree.

                I assume it's partially meant as a disclaimer so people don't rely on the solution for reuse or continued 'killing power'. If there are any chemical reps floating around here, I'd love to hear the real word...

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                • #9
                  Don't worry about

                  As Brian Campbell said, don't worry about it. You will not harm your yeast and you will make your tank less sanitary by trying to remove the PAA. PAA is often used as a yeast wash for this reason. For what it is worth Kai, I buy my chemicals from Brian Campbell, he works for Loeffler.

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                  • #10
                    It's not harming yeast that I'm concerned about, it's beer contact with residue of sterilant that is classified as an oxidising agent.

                    The argument does seem to come down to two camps, split between those who worry about the side-effects and those who worry about the bugs.

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                    • #11
                      Kai, you make a good point. I too am now interested in the side effects considering I use PAA on everything that touches my beer post fermentation. Have you used ClO2? Anyone out there care to comment on the oxidizing effect of PAA versus ClO2?

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                      • #12
                        I haven't used ClO₂ yet, unfortunately. I've always found PAA contact with beer to be a polarising issue amongst brewers, so I find this discussion a very interesting one.

                        As one small part of a long list of change we made to reduce oxidative damage in one of our beers, we recently changed our CIP regime to rinse 100-200ppm PAA sterilant solution down to <50ppm in-tank to reduce the amount of residue coming into contact with beer, especially since we often fill a tank immediately after cleaning (ie little time to drain out the remaining sterilant). Using a UV-treated filtered water supply that we test weekly for beer microbes too...

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                        • #13
                          Even though it's yet another chemical to keep in stock, couldn't you just use something like saniclean as a final rinse instead of trying to make sure a water rinse is sanitary?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by campbell.brian
                            I would recommend Peracetic Acid over Acid Anionic sanitizers due to a more complete spectrum. Acid Anionic sanitizers tend to foam extensively in CIP, creating even more residual chemical in the tank.
                            Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough. Why not use saniclean (a non-foaming anionic) as the final rinse after PAA instead of coming up with ingenious ways of sterilizing water to rinse with?

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                            • #15
                              PAA is a no rinse sanitizer, just as saniclean. The difference is that PAA kills more stuff, which is personally what I prefer. KILL KILL KILL!

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