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VeryNiceBrewer
02-25-2013, 03:03 PM
I would like thoughts on tap room bar tenders splitting tips even if one of the tenders is an owner and one an employee.

ChesterBrew
02-25-2013, 03:44 PM
Knowing what tap room people generally make, my personal opinion is the owner should forfeit their share of any tip jar unless the employees also have a stake in the company profits.

VeryNiceBrewer
02-25-2013, 04:01 PM
Knowing what tap room people generally make, my personal opinion is the owner should forfeit their share of any tip jar unless the employees also have a stake in the company profits.

I hear you and agree for the most part, the only problem is that once two bartenders are hired, all the sudden they have to split tips when before, working with an owner, they did not.

For example, if the tips are $300 for a night, if they were working with an owner, they would get the full $300, if it was another employee, they would only take home $150.

Half of me feels like you do and the other half wants to set a precedent that scheduled bartenders always split tips, owner or employee is irrelevant.

nateo
02-25-2013, 04:16 PM
Taking a share of the tips doesn't communicate your ownership of the business or your authority to your employees.

I've never had an owner take tips. I don't think I'd want to work for one that does. I don't think it's unethical to take the tips, but I think it's really tacky and lacks class.

Unless you want to split the equity with your bartenders as well, I'd just let them enjoy their pittance.

ChesterBrew
02-25-2013, 04:26 PM
Unless you want to split the equity with your bartenders as well, I'd just let them enjoy their pittance.

Equity -- yes, that's what I was trying to convey when saying "stake in the profits." Thanks for saying it better than I did.

nateo
02-25-2013, 04:34 PM
Chester - Yeah, I was agreeing with you, I just didn't bother to insert the quote.

I think it's really important to convey power and success to your employees. If they think you're grubbing for tips, they'll gossip about it. They'll tell people how bad your business must be doing, or how greedy you are. Whether that's true or not, that's what it will look like to some people.

ChesterBrew
02-25-2013, 04:51 PM
No worries. True or not (many times not) employees tend to equate "ownership" with raking in the dough far more than they are. I've owned a business for the past 8 years and bitterly laugh at this notion, but can't refute that it's out there.

How do you make a small fortune in brewing? Start with a large one... ;)

schlosser
02-26-2013, 07:58 AM
In our Retail and Tasting Room we do this. If there is an owner and employee working, the employee gets all the tips. More than 1 employee working and they split the tips. If there is just owners, then whatever tips we do receive (try not to take them but people will leave them anyway) we take and put into jar for the Company Party. Not as much money as you are talking about in a Tap Room, but it works for us.

Cheers,
Dave

nateo
02-26-2013, 09:24 AM
If there is just owners, then whatever tips we do receive (try not to take them but people will leave them anyway) we take and put into jar for the Company Party.

Dave - That's a great idea.

Another option: at one of the restaurants I worked the owner usually tended bar, and sometimes waited tables. She'd save all of her tips, then at the end of each week she'd divvy them up to the people who didn't typically get tips like the busboys, hostesses, and back-of-house staff.

Chester - I hear you about owners not raking in the dough. I'm a junior partner in a small business now. I'm still a long ways from "well-off," but I'm making a hell of a lot more than when I was working in the food industry. I'm amazed at how little I made back then.

Bainbridge
02-26-2013, 10:08 AM
I think it depends.
If you have a full on brewpub, lots of staff, and the owner is just there chatting and kinda overseeing things? Yeah, don't take tips. Total dick move and your employees will resent you.
If it's an owner and an employee running a busy small taproom? As an owner, when you look at it hourly I'm not exactly making bank, so I'd support splitting the tips for honest, hard bartending work. (If only so I could splurge and buy the fancy kind of cereal that has a label on it.) But if it was a slow night, it'd be proper to give what tips there are all to the employee. If I help out a bit during the night when it suddenly got busy but I am not fully 'on' (help move some kegs, pour a pint or two, fill a growler for someone) I wouldn't take any tips.

Also things get fun when an owner takes tips and you have an LLC. I believe that technically those tips go in as LLC income. So when you get your share of the profits divvied out to you you could technically get say, 1/3 of another owner's tips. :)

Love Dave's idea about the Company Party Jar! We fill growlers during the odd hours when the taproom isn't open and I'm thinking any tips I get there might just go in that jar now.

rudge75
02-26-2013, 10:40 AM
If the owner is actually bartending, and not just standing around schmoozing, I've seen folks in that situation use the tips for the company party and for the Dine & Dash fund.

OurMutualBrewer
03-10-2013, 08:36 AM
We have an extremely busy taproom on weekends. If I happen to be in, and our bartender looks slammed, I help him out. I tell him not to tip me, but he does anyways... its just his way of showing he appreciates it.

Scott M
03-10-2013, 11:54 AM
My take....

Owner and employee split the tip jar. Owner uses tips to host a BBQ for employees!

nateo
03-14-2013, 05:58 PM
Depending on the particulars of how tips are received from customers and how any tipping out or tip pooling is done in your business you may violate the FLSA and state wage law by taking any of the tips, even if you are bartending or serving along with the tipped employees. If you are the owner (or any non-tipped employee) and you tend the bar with other tipped employees and all the tips at the bar are pooled the Fair Labor Standards Act prohibits you from taking any of the tips.


Interesting. I didn't know that, and had to look it up. Here's a fact sheet with more info, for those interested:
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.pdf

The big thing is to reinforce is that the tips cannot be taken out of the pool for any other purpose than paying the tipped bartender. So taking tips for a "party fund" is illegal, unless the bartender pitches in from their tips after you give them to him/her.

mmmatt
06-29-2013, 08:21 PM
Interesting. I didn't know that, and had to look it up. Here's a fact sheet with more info, for those interested:
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.pdf

The big thing is to reinforce is that the tips cannot be taken out of the pool for any other purpose than paying the tipped bartender. So taking tips for a "party fund" is illegal, unless the bartender pitches in from their tips after you give them to him/her.

Taking tips from a pool is illegal, but there is nothing that says the owner can't earn tips and do with them as they see fit. It is not the employees money if the owner is acting as the 2nd bartender or taking tables or whatever. Many owners have multiple jobs within their business. There was a section in that document that talked about dual jobs, such as the guy who bartends 2 nights and washes dishes two nights or whatever, but that was talking about using tips as (tip credit) to secure the minimum wage. That was saying that you can't count that employees tips from their bartending shift to use as excuse to pay them less than minimum wage for their non-bartending shift. Doesn't say an employer can't earn tips working along side an employee!

As for the right or wrong of it. I know lots of bar owners who work behind the bar and for the most part they take tips or split tips when appropriate. That is taking a shift and working as a bartender. You don't just jump in on someones scheduled shift for a little bit and take tips for the drinks you sold, because that is the employees shift and thus their tips. You maybe jump behind the bar when a bus pulls up to make sure your customers are getting served quickly and keep your bartender out of the weeds, but that isn't taking a bartending shift. But when you are on the schedule for a bartending shift, there is no reason not to split tips. If you don't work as hard or harder than your employees, then you are going to have more problems than just tip issues!! Certainly when its a slow night and the tips are lean, it is good policy to give it all to the hourly employee. Likely you would leave that employee to bartend and go to the office to catch up on paper work!

In my neck of the woods there are many small corner bars and it is quite common for bar owners to bartend along with only a handful of employees because they can't afford to not be working. They count on those tips just like any other bartender does! If they didn't, I promise they wouldn't be working behind the bar. Don't ever skimp on a tip because the guy serving you is the owner! That is an insult to him and only says that you are cheap and lacking class, or that the service was so bad that you couldn't wait to leave. It is absolutely NOT appropriate to stiff anyone who gives good service. If someone turns down a tip then so be it, but if they need to be working behind the bar to make ends meet they want it. Certainly, it may be that the Owner just bops around and gets the occasional drink while the bartender stocks and cleans and serves most of the drinks. That is different and that isn't bartending, but if they take a shift like everyone else, they deserve the tips.

Ideas of using owner earned tips to fund an employee party are great ideas and would be very generous IMHO. There is nothing in that document that says that you can't. If you said "10% of each nights tips from all employees will go to the employee party" than that would be illegal. After earning and receiving your tips you can do with them as you will.

Matt

nateo
07-01-2013, 01:09 PM
I know lots of bar owners who work behind the bar and for the most part they take tips or split tips when appropriate.


I have no doubt some owners do this. My point was just that, depending on how you're "tip splitting" that might be illegal. Lots of people break labor laws all the time. You have to decide for yourself if that's "best practice" or not.

nateo
07-02-2013, 11:51 AM
I just read an AP piece about the Starbucks tip case, where Assistant Managers were prohibited from participating in the tip pool with baristas and shift supervisors.

"Judge Victoria Graffeo, in writing the majority decision, said employees who regularly provide direct service to customers "remain tip-pool eligible" even if they have some supervisory responsibility.

"But an employee granted meaningful authority or control over subordinates can no longer be considered similar to waiters and busboys ... and, consequently, is not eligible to participate in a tip pool," she wrote."

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2013/06/26/4314396/ny-court-starbucks-baristas-must.html#storylink=cpy

mmmatt
07-05-2013, 08:50 AM
mashpaddled, I would love to see any court cases that says that a manager or owner working as a bartender can't take tips. Please post some links. I believe you are fully misinformed and are confusing tip pool issues with the ability to work and act as a tipped employee.

Matt

***edit*** also in the starbucks article that nateo posted, it says that the shift supervisors were allowed to receive tips because they did a similar job. Not because they weren't owners, or were not financially tied to the company, and not because they didn't have higher levels of responsibility or authority, but because they did much of the same work as the baristas. It isn't because of a job title or a moniker, it is about the work you do, and an owner working behind the bar side by side with a bartender would be considered "doing much of the same work" as the non-owner bartender and would then be eligible for tips for a tip pool.

nateo
07-05-2013, 09:53 AM
Matt, you should probably re-read that quote from that judge. As a shift supervisor at Starbucks, you don't have power to hire/fire, you don't have meaningful control over the employees, you can't assign them to different positions, you can't discipline/demote them, etc. As an owner, you can do all of those things. The assistant and store managers at Starbucks can do all of those things, which is why they were excluded from the tip pool.

AFAIK the owner can keep tips they receive directly, (the customer hands them tips directly) but they are not allowed to "split" tips with others. That would constitute an illegal tip pool.

I'm usually not a fan of arguing from authority, but in this case, I'm gonna assume the practicing labor lawyer knows more about the law in this situation.

If you want to set up an illegal tip pool at your business, go nuts, but don't say no one warned you.

nateo
07-06-2013, 01:33 PM
I'm not arguing that an owner could not take tips if those tips are not pooled or split with any other employee and if those tips had been earned by any other bartender would not be pooled or split with anybody else.

OK, so if I understand that correctly, of the following scenarios, only #1 is legal, and #2 and #3 are illegal. Right?

1) Owner works as bartender, owner keeps tips given to him directly, all other bartenders keep their own tips with no pooling/splitting.
2) Owner works as bartender, owner keeps tips given to him directly, other bartenders pool/split tips.
3) Owner works as bartender, owner pools/splits tips with other bartenders.

mmmatt
07-15-2013, 10:43 AM
OK. Well I will give you guys this much, this is absolutely NOT as simple an issue as I thought it was, because tip pooling is a far broader term than it should be and is now including traditional tip behavior such as splitting and tipping out. I guess we will be seeing much more of these kinds of things coming across the wire as businesses like Starbucks and other counter-retail service places expect tips. That is kind of new really, and not traditional to tip that type of person, so that is why these things are coming up. Those tips are not the volume that waitresses get or bartenders get, and yet the employer is trying to use these tips as a way to justify a lower than minimum wage. This is where "tip pooling" is coming into play. Tip pooling has traditionally been a scenario where after each shift tips are collected and every week total tips are counted and broken down to an hourly value and then paid to employees alongside their hourly under the guise that the hourly plus the tip portion must equal minimum wage and if it doesn't then the employer makes up that difference. None of that rubs me right as someone who has worked in bars and restaurants off and on for 25 years, and although I have heard of this happening in bars I have never (nor would I ever) worked in a place that did this. As a bartender I make more than most because I am a great bartender. Being attentive, and entertaining and providing an enjoyable experience are the keys to making money as a bartender. It is more than making a good drink or puring a pint with the perfect head. To base tips on just the hours a person was standing there is a bunch of crap and doesn't inspire or require bartending skills. That is for counter help, but in true one size fits all law making, it is being used to battle common sense. Ha! Well that's the end of the rant portion!!

The place where all this mess is getting really sticky is in the things that have been going on, without issue for many years. Both "tipping out" to bar or busboy or cooks and "splitting" tips among people sharing a single job are now being called (or in my opinion confused as) tip pooling. I was fully surprised to find these things all being lumped together and was the source of steam for my argument. These things are certainly all different, and hopefully as these issues come and go they will be defined as such.

Here are a few points from an article I found googling. This is from tipcompliance.com and I have no idea of their authority or source on this information, so see it for what it is.
http://www.tipcompliance.com/pollearningcenter.cfm?doc_id=89


Unfortunately the court makes no distinction between Starbuckís fast paced retail environment and that of a leisurely restaurant with personal service. What about the small retailer whose manager also works the sales counter? Herein lies the most complex issue regarding tip pooling / sharing. This situation is not unlike the restaurant manager who takes a bar shift.


The law favors discretion in such matters, and continues to guide such supervisory staff not to participate in the pool unless their presence in that post is a regular part of their workweek. The incidental shift is viewed more as part of their responsibility to the house, and thus their wages should reflect these recommendations. If business necessity requires that they take such a shift, the remaining staff should either share in the tips or allow the previously defined sharing plan to prevail. In the case where a manager is a full-time counter staff, there still remains a grey area. Can the balance of the staff actually define the pool with or without this managerís influence, free from fear of reprisals of guilt? Likely not. It is therefore recommended that these staff not participate in the tip pool creation or itís distribution.

What this is saying is that if you take a scheduled shift you earn tips, but if you jump back behind the bar to help out or to cover a late employee or an absent employee (incidental shift), then you should not take tips. To me this is absolutely logical and fair, and a bold black line instead of the gray area that some see it as. Certainly with all the tip pooling issues that retail counter help is now stiring up, it is not as simple as it seemed to me at first.

To say that no supervisory help can take tips is nonsense and assumes that you have a gm or owner walking around directing traffic at all open hours. The reality is small to medium establishments give those responsibilities to lead bartenders who will be in charge of locking up, cutting staff when business slows, comping voiding and overiding tickets, checking people out when their shift is done to be sure their sidework is complete and often have involvement in employee reviews or money counting or setting banks or ordering and maintaining inventory. The only place I have ever worked where there was a supervisor on at all times that had no other job other than to supervise, was a Bennagans in the 80's. So that is probably more of a corporate thing, but in the other 15 or 20 places I have worked there was a gm or supervisor there during the day, but at night it was the head bartender that ran the restaurant. Maybe it is different in different locations. Certainly if you are rocking a 250 seat brewpub then you could likely justify supervisor at all times, but for most places smaller than that I can't image that is a justifiable expense.

My business model consists of 2 full time people who will have designated shifts as bartenders as well as other duties. One person is going to be brewing with me and will also be a working bar manager. Another is my office manager who will run the back office as well as bartend 3 or 4 shifts a week. One of the 3 of us will always be there to close and will be bartending and earning tips. I understand that there is currently some gray area in these matters but there is no unfair advantage to anything I propose. If anything, the person of authority wiull likely recieve higher tips because customers will know and see them more often. So that other bartender takes advantage of that in the split. If someone tried to challenge any of this in a court of law, it would be easy enough to prove that the person claiming injustice was actually seeking unfair advantage by attempting to be compensated for work they didn't do. Personally I'm not afraid of that type of legal battle because it is nonsense and the laws are not so cut and dry in this regard from what I can see.

nateo
07-16-2013, 12:09 PM
If someone tried to challenge any of this in a court of law, it would be easy enough to prove that the person claiming injustice was actually seeking unfair advantage by attempting to be compensated for work they didn't do. Personally I'm not afraid of that type of legal battle because it is nonsense and the laws are not so cut and dry in this regard from what I can see.

That's not really how the legal system works. It's not "you only get in trouble if you break the law in an unjust way," it's "did you break the law or not?"

If you think the laws are unfair, you can write your senator about it. If you think the laws are ambiguous, I don't agree with your assessment, and it doesn't sound like the FLSA does either.

IMO, there's no reason to risk the cost and bad publicity of a trial, or the cost of a fine.

Really, you only have yourself to blame, as an owner, if you can't pay yourself a decent wage without breaking the law. You either need to find a better way to run your business, or don't bother owning your own business in the first place.

mmmatt
07-18-2013, 07:35 AM
Really, you only have yourself to blame, as an owner, if you can't pay yourself a decent wage without breaking the law. You either need to find a better way to run your business, or don't bother owning your own business in the first place.
OK. It isn't breaking the law to take tips as an owner. But either way, it is less a concern of my own time behind the bar compared to people of authority behind the bar. I will always have a lead bartender running the show and those people will take tips just like any other bartender does. Somebody NEEDS to be in charge at all times and I can't imagine tap rooms and smaller brewpubs can afford a manager walking around doing nothing else.

Laws are based on words and words are negotiated and reinterpreted and then when appropriate, are used as precedence for the next case. There is no law that says owners can't take tips. There is a precedence that says that owners or "people of authority" can't take tips from a tip pool. The issue with all of this is the clarification of what a tip pool is. Traditionally, tip pooling is not the same as splitting tips or tipping out. Will a court ever make that clarification? Who knows, but to say it couldn't be effectively argued is silly. To say that a bartender, who worked side by side with another person of authority, could then argue in court that they deserve both halves of the tip jar because the other person has authority over them is also silly.

One way to cover oneself in these matters may be a simple questionnaire at hiring time as part of the employee handbook. Throughout what I have been reading on this subject, it keeps coming up that the employee's should make the rules in regards to tip pooling. So If you give a person a questionnaire about tip pooling with these types of scenarios, you can be sure not to put them on shifts where conflict might arise if they disagree with this thought process. I would however be willing to bet that most people would select the answers that show a fairness of equal pay for equal work regardless of a persons authority level.

Discordia
08-07-2013, 08:28 PM
Taking tips as an owner is a can of worms, and even if you think you have your arrangment that is ethically fair, you are sure to have an employee that disagrees and good help is hard to find. A possible solution (with its own set of social and financial controversies) is to have an all-included price, and bartenders are paid a flat wage. In this way, any bartender gets a reliable paycheck regardless of who (owner/bartenders) are working beside them. If you are covering for a bartender, the tips essentialy go to you as you aren't forking over 15/hr for that other barkeep.

An all-included price is a dramatic choice that has very large effects on which style of employee and customer you will attract. The Black Star Co-op in Austin TX seems to do pretty well with it, but it definitely feels like a "different sort of place". It may not fly in Milwaukee.

Tip stress is something that can cost you good workers. I was at a restaurant where the managers coveted the service staff's tips and would hint at wanting a tipout if it was a good night. You don't want your managers (or your waitstaff) with that distraction when they are supposed to be memorizing the IBU and OG of your beers. I've turned down a management position because it would be a 7/hr pay cut from being a server (and then tried to open a restaurant where I ended up with 0/hr but that's another story). Furthermore, a tipped system makes the bartender an employee of the customer and not of you, which I'm starting to think is an inappropriate relationship. When I was a server, I would use my kitchen connections to make things better for "my tables", hide shared resources like linens/silverware to use as I see fit, add tables to my section if I felt like I could handle it, compete for good tables with other servers... and I made bank. But all of this is to the detriment of you, the owner.

Tips are the number one most important thing to a server, and anybody who intends on having a FOH needs a manager who can tread that issue in the correct manner.

mashpaddled
08-14-2013, 08:38 PM
OK. It isn't breaking the law to take tips as an owner. But either way, it is less a concern of my own time behind the bar compared to people of authority behind the bar. I will always have a lead bartender running the show and those people will take tips just like any other bartender does. Somebody NEEDS to be in charge at all times and I can't imagine tap rooms and smaller brewpubs can afford a manager walking around doing nothing else.

Laws are based on words and words are negotiated and reinterpreted and then when appropriate, are used as precedence for the next case. There is no law that says owners can't take tips. There is a precedence that says that owners or "people of authority" can't take tips from a tip pool. The issue with all of this is the clarification of what a tip pool is. Traditionally, tip pooling is not the same as splitting tips or tipping out. Will a court ever make that clarification? Who knows, but to say it couldn't be effectively argued is silly. To say that a bartender, who worked side by side with another person of authority, could then argue in court that they deserve both halves of the tip jar because the other person has authority over them is also silly.

One way to cover oneself in these matters may be a simple questionnaire at hiring time as part of the employee handbook. Throughout what I have been reading on this subject, it keeps coming up that the employee's should make the rules in regards to tip pooling. So If you give a person a questionnaire about tip pooling with these types of scenarios, you can be sure not to put them on shifts where conflict might arise if they disagree with this thought process. I would however be willing to bet that most people would select the answers that show a fairness of equal pay for equal work regardless of a persons authority level.

You have a strange sense of what the law is and how the law operates.

d_striker
11-19-2013, 11:25 AM
I think what clouds this issue is that many people in this thread are talking about a tip pool. A tip pool is such that all gratuities are pooled at the end of the night and tips are then distributed per whatever tip structure is in place. I have worked as a server at a couple different places with tip pools and I am strongly opposed to them. Tip pools penalize top performers and reward low performers.

Here is our situation. Our brew pub is going to operate like a restaurant/bar without a tip pool. We are going to hire a bartender or two and also servers. The bartender is the only one allowed behind the bar pulling taps.

Servers will ring in beer and the bartender will receive a ticket and pour beers/drinks accordingly. Bartenders keep all of their tips from patrons sitting at the bar and are tipped out a percentage of the server’s alcohol sales. This percentage runs anywhere from 2%-5% of alcohol sales in the dozens of restaurants/bars that I have worked at and also managed.

One of the managing partners will also be tending bar 4-5 nights per week. The partner will keep all of their tips from patrons sitting at the bar. I’m conflicted about whether servers should tip out the partner like they would any other bartender.

nateo
11-19-2013, 04:14 PM
Iím conflicted about whether servers should tip out the partner like they would any other bartender.

They're not "any other bartender!" They're an owner. You can't make your employees give you their tips. In common language, that's called "stealing" and/or "extortion."

If you want tips, you need to sell your stake in the company, and apply for a job as a bartender.

ChesterBrew
11-19-2013, 04:37 PM
My god, the partner has an equity stake, is keeping all of their tips made at the bar, and then gets to take some of the servers' tips?

I wouldn't work for a company where I was expected to give a percentage of my tips to an owner. Most servers get paid well below minimum wage as it is.

d_striker
11-19-2013, 08:54 PM
Most servers get paid well below minimum wage as it is.

Most servers I know make $100 on a slow night.

nateo
11-20-2013, 05:39 AM
Most servers I know make $100 on a slow night.

Interesting. The waiters that d_striker knows may make $100 on a slow night, Apparently d_striker's friends are near the top 10% of incomes for waiters. The waiters the Bureau of Labor Statistics knows: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353031.htm make on average $9.95/hr, or $20,710 annually.

Waiters are obviously rolling in dough, which explains the large numbers of BMWs in employee parking behind your neighborhood Applebee's.

In any case, they definitely make enough money that, as an owner, you should violate wage laws by forcing them to tip you out. Why not charge all your employees for the privilege of working for you? What's the point of having power over others if you can't exploit your position for personal gain?

If you want to steal from your employees, there's nothing stopping you, except the law. Don't be surprised when your employees steal from you, too.

d_striker
11-20-2013, 09:30 AM
Interesting. The waiters that d_striker knows may make $100 on a slow night, Apparently d_striker's friends are near the top 10% of incomes for waiters. The waiters the Bureau of Labor Statistics knows: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353031.htm make on average $9.95/hr, or $20,710 annually.



I'm not going to play into your antagonistic troll attempt with all of your insinuations and accusations.

But I will say this. I have worked at many fine dining restaurants and managed a couple. I have also worked at a couple of chain restaurants.

My sales at fine dining restaurants were easily $1000. Do the math with a 20% average gratuity. At chain restaurants, my sales were easily $500. Again do the math.

It wasn't until I wanted to buy a house that I started reporting my tips. It is very common for servers to not report their tips. Maybe this is where the Bureau of Labor is getting their statistics from.

I made more money waiting tables four nights a week and going to school full time than I currently do working 40+ hour weeks as a Supply Chain Analyst at a manufacturing company.

nateo
11-20-2013, 07:11 PM
I made more money waiting tables four nights a week and going to school full time than I currently do working 40+ hour weeks as a Supply Chain Analyst at a manufacturing company.

Even if that's true, why exactly does that mean it's OK to steal their tips?

The issue is, under the law, tips belong to the person the tips are given to, unless the person is in a qualified tip pool. An owner cannot be in a tip pool. Therefore, if you're an owner, and you take tips from your subordinate, you are taking property that does not belong to you.

"Taking property that does not belong to you" is normally called "stealing."

I'm not "insinuating" anything. I'm being very direct: what you're proposing is both illegal and immoral.

Don't take my word for it. This has been discussed to death previously, but I guess you didn't care to read the whole thread:
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/tip-pooling-credits-service-employees-29804.html

"The basic rule of tips is that they belong to employees, not the employer. Employees can't be required to give their tips or any part of them to the company, except as part of a valid tip pooling arrangement (see "Tip Pooling," below) -- and even then, the tip pool must be divided only among certain other employees. The employer can't be part of the pool."

"Only employees who regularly receive tips can be part of the pool. Employees can't be required to share their tips with employees who don't usually receive their own tips, like dishwashers or cooks. And no employers are allowed in the pool: Tips from a tip pool can't go to employers or, in some states, managers or supervisors."

d_striker
11-20-2013, 08:17 PM
Even if that's true, why exactly does that mean it's OK to steal their tips?

The issue is, under the law, tips belong to the person the tips are given to, unless the person is in a qualified tip pool. An owner cannot be in a tip pool. Therefore, if you're an owner, and you take tips from your subordinate, you are taking property that does not belong to you.

"Taking property that does not belong to you" is normally called "stealing."

I'm not "insinuating" anything. I'm being very direct: what you're proposing is both illegal and immoral.



Actually, you ARE insinuating that I'm stealing tips. I was speaking to the discrepancy between your Labor statistic and my own personal experience. Again, you're jumping to conclusions and insinuating that I'm saying it's ok to take tips based on actual wages.

I made my original post to get direction. You've made it very clear, albeit in a very aggressive manner, that it is not legal. That is the answer I was looking for. I could have done without your aggressive accusations.

Thanks, sort of.

ChesterBrew
11-21-2013, 04:53 AM
FWIW, I interpreted nateo's usage of "you" in any cases of stealing from employees to be hypothetical (If "you" do x, then y will occur") and not a personal attack.

At any rate, glad you received the clarifications you were looking for. Good luck...

nateo
11-21-2013, 08:02 AM
FWIW, I interpreted nateo's usage of "you" in any cases of stealing from employees to be hypothetical (If "you" do x, then y will occur") and not a personal attack.

That's true, I meant "you" in that context as an indefinite personal pronoun, like "one."

D_striker, I understood you weren't currently stealing from your employees, but that you were considering doing so. You apparently didn't know that was illegal, "stealing" and/or wrong.

In any case, I'm glad we got that straightened out. I apologize if my moral opposition to stealing came across as overly aggressive.

dantose
09-16-2014, 02:53 PM
I would like thoughts on tap room bar tenders splitting tips even if one of the tenders is an owner and one an employee.

Short answer, No, don't do it. There may be a couple weird special circumstances where it would be technically legal, but even in those unusual situations, it would look bad.