Hard water...help.

[shults]

I have large backwashable sediment and then charcoal activated filters.
I was using a softener which now i realize i was adding craploads of salt to my beer.
I´ld love some input on what RO filter is reccommended for hard water.
My plan is to play with salt recipes for each style once i get my hardness under control.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Jeff Shults

[nohandslance]

GE Merlin r/o unit

I recomend the general electric r/o unit to start out your water conditioning test. The Merlin is a good price for 560 gallons Per day of stripped h2o for yor base. Price is + or minus $500.

Lance
Rebel Malting Co.
Reno, Nevada USA

[YSBrewer]

We use two 350 gal/per day RO units. You'll want to use the softener in front of the RO to extend the life of your membranes. Also don't count on getting "true" output of said manufactures claims. Water temperature and other factors will likely reduce your yield. Our RO system cost maybe $450 bucks from Buckeye Field Supply and works like a champ. I don't know about the Merlin unit and whether it's a pressurized system or not but I'd be interested to see it's actual yield.

[shults]

nano or RO

So now I got back the water report for my water before softening. It turns out that I have 227ppm sodium without the softener. The softener only raised the sodium about 20ppm. The total hardness is 138. The only number that is reasonably high is chlorides at 143. The water in general, is acceptable accept for the sodium. So the RO may be the best bet as I understand it. Should i leave the softener in line or it´s not even neccesary?
Very helpful by the way. It´s tough breaking new ground somewhere with no industry guy next door.
Cheers
Jeff

[shults]

It depends on the water production needs for your brewery. As long as you are needing a couple hundred gallons per day, then going with a system that takes standard 2.5", 4", or 8" membrane cartridges is highly recommended. Using a proprietary system like Merlin is going to severely restrict your options.

The first thing to understand is that removing all ionic content from brewing water is not always desirable. Additionally, the cost for removing more ionic content comes in the form of more water waste and energy usage. Therefore, RO membranes are NOT desirable or preferred for brewery use. Nanofiltration membranes are slightly more ion permeable and provide water and energy savings to the brewery while still providing 'near Pilsen water quality'. Most brewers recognize that that level of ion removal is sufficient as a starting point for their water needs. When you obtain a system that uses standard membrane cartridge sizes, then you have the opportunity to use nanofiltration membranes instead of RO. That is ultimately better for your bottom line.

As mentioned above, sometimes using ion-exchange softening on the source water can be helpful for reducing scaling on membranes. If the hardness of the tap water is very high, then that option should be considered. One problem with this option is that the sodium content of your product water will be a bit higher. That might be an issue when using nanofiltration membranes since they may only reject 80 to 90 percent of the monovalent ion load which includes sodium. Since a sodium concentration of less than 40 ppm is typically acceptable in brewing water, that means if the feed water has a sodium content of greater than 200 ppm, then you might have to use RO membranes instead of nanofiltration to provide your brewery with acceptable water quality. That is the primary decider on the acceptability of nanofiltration in the brewery. Of course, if the feed water is not ion-exchange softened prior to membrane treatment, then nanofiltration is likely to produce excellent brewing water quality. That just comes at a cost of more scaling potential and the need for more membrane cleaning and replacement.

WaterEng....it turns out my water is soft in this case not hard. Miscommunication with the locals... So I may be fine with just an RO right?
I also plan on adding salts once I get it under control depending on the beer style of the day.
Jeff

[ChesterBrew]

So far as I know, GE's Merlin has been discontinued. FWIW...

[shults]

thanks a lot. Hope to be install this soon and see an improvement in the beer.
cheers

[colinthehippie]

Very High Hardness

WaterEng,

Wondering what you consider "very high hardness." Our municipal water total hardness is 236 ppm as CaCO3. As I understand it, hardness is less of an issue than alkalinity, and ours is 183.8 ppm.

Question for all: I'm trying to get at how we should approach our municipal water for brewing, esecially when we brew lighter beer styles (pales, blondes, saison, etc.). A water quality report is attached. Would charcoal filtration be adequate, with acification of mash water? Or should be be filter all or some of this by RO or "nanofiltration," whatever that is?
Water Quality Annual Avg 2012-2013.pdf
Cheers,

Colin Cummings
Amarillo, TX

[BlackLocustHops]

saltless softener

Would something like this work

https://safewatersofteners.com/

It uses some kind of alloy to change the charge of the particles, thus softening them?
Not sure if that helps with brewing but it sure helps lengthen the life of copper and steel water pipes.

[AnthonyB]

We are also looking for a solution to reduce hardness but the wrinkle is that we need to maintain a reasonable flow-rate to feed our on-demand water heater which we use for doughing in and sparging. All but the largest RO systems don't have a flow-rate that will work for us but maybe the nanofiltration stuff would work?

Our water profile looks like 10ca 11mg 39na 166hco3 1so4 9cl.

[colinthehippie]

Partial Filtration

That is not an ideal brewing water. The 30 ppm Mg is near the limit and you probably wouldn't want to add any more. The Na and Cl are also quite high...potentially excessively so. Carbon filtration will not affect ionic concentrations. You have to resort to a membrane process for ion reduction.

You may be able to get by with acidification to neutralize the alkalinity, but the presence of the Mg, Na, and Cl may make many of your beers harsher and more overbearing than your customers would prefer. Including a membrane process in your brewery to knock out those excessive ions would be a good idea. The beers will be better for it.

I gathered it wasn't ideal, but I've made several batches of homebrew with it and have had good success. That said, at the commercial scale I would probably want to reduce Mg, Na, and Cl as you say. But RO filtration is not a very economical or sustainable long term approach. Would it be feasible to run some amount, say half, through RO and blend? I can already foresee difficulty with being consistent with this approach, but I think it will mostly be necessary only for pale and hoppy beers.

I appreciate the input, our water is a big time weak link for us here.

Cheers,

Colin Cummings
Amarillo, TX

[AnthonyB]

There is no 'hardness' problem with that water. Those levels are actually lower than desirable for almost all wort production purposes. The primary problem is the bicarbonate content and that can easily be neutralized with acidification. The sodium is a little high, but not excessively so.

For the unit that Che mentions...its snake oil. The website even says that it doesn't change the amount of hardness as measured by any testing. Even if the unit did alter the way the hardness ions act, the brewing process would quickly revert any change it provides...making it useless. By the way, I doubt that the alloy does anything except move money from your pocket into theirs.

We acidify now but for the water profiles with negative residual alkalinity, we start looking at phosphoric acid (at 75% strength) amounts as high as 1mL/gallon and I have started to worry that it may begin to impact the taste in an undesirable way.

[nateo]

We acidify now but for the water profiles with negative residual alkalinity, we start looking at phosphoric acid (at 75% strength) amounts as high as 1mL/gallon and I have started to worry that it may begin to impact the taste in an undesirable way.

Phosphoric acid is H3PO4. The ions involved are not perceptible in wort. Malt contains a ton of phosphorous, so any amount you'd get from acid is just a drop in a bucket. If you were using sulfuric acid or hydrochloric acid, flavor might be a concern.

[tpeterson]

Extra Hard Water, what do you think?

Hi I followed this thread and would like to get some advice if anyone has an idea. Here is what I have going: I am opening a brewery and pub utilizing the same water line from the city. I have extremely hard water with values being:
SO4=226 mg/l
Hardness as CaCo3=425 mg/l
Ca=81 mg/l
Na=62 mg/l
Mg=54 mg/l

I need a system that can provide proper brewing water; and softening would be one approach but I am worried about the levels of sodium increasing. Besides the brewery I also want to cut down on the maintenance and cleaning due to hard water in the kitchen and bathrooms. Should I have one overall water treatment or have two systems, one for overall and a secondary in the brewery? I also worry about the consistency of a water softener as I am only familar with residential applications where bags of salt are dumped into the softener. I am installing a new line from the city main but could use the existing water line if a dual treatment is necessary; meaning, one line for the pub and the other for the brewery. Another point to ponder is the city has outrageous fees (2"~$42,000) for any water meter over 1" (1"~$12,000), so treatment could affect my flow.

Any help will be appreciated. Thank you

[Ted Briggs]

[QUOTE=WaterEng;95802] Nanofiltration membranes are slightly more ion permeable and provide water and energy savings to the brewery while still providing 'near Pilsen water quality'. Most brewers recognize that that level of ion removal is sufficient as a starting point for their water needs. When you obtain a system that uses standard membrane cartridge sizes, then you have the opportunity to use nanofiltration membranes instead of RO. That is ultimately better for your bottom line. [QUOTE]

Can you list some manufactures/models with high flow rate ?