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  • Salary Range

    I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on the expected salary for a graduate of the CBA program from the ABG. Any recent graduates or other brewmasters input would be greatly appreciated as I will be attending the July-Dec. program and cannot find any information on salaries within the industry. Thanks

  • #2
    Thats not an easy question. There is a great range of salaries in the brewing industry. First of all, you will be hourly most likely due to the fact that you are a production employee and not eligible for salary due to labor laws. Second, you will be the low guy on the pole, of course you already know that. If you are going to work in a brewpub (or micro), depending on the area of the country, expect 9-12 bucks per hour to start. You can find higher if you are really lucky, but I know head brewers that make about that wage. There was a salary survey thread that I was a part of months ago, search for it on here. If I recall, the survey was for head brewers, so not really relevant I guess. It's a labor of love, not money. My servers make more than me as a head brewer the first week they walk in the door (no hourly tip credit here in Washington, so they get state minimum wage of about 7.00 bucks per hour plus great tips). It's a lifestyle choice, so wage is not always an indication of the total compensation. Good luck...

    Comment


    • #3
      Like any other career choice.........

      I'm with Beauxman, except with a few embelishments..........

      Brewing is really no different than any other production career choice. Salary depends on a few factors:
      1.) Size of the company.
      2.) Your experience.
      3.) Where you are at, geographically.
      4.) The owners.

      When I finished my Associates degree in Mechanical Design (many yarns ago!) I went to work for this family owned ("Mom & Pop") company in central Illinois. With a 2 year degree, I made $6 an hour with benifits. In the 5 years I worked there, I received a whole $.75 an hour raise. While working there, I finished my degree to get a BS in Manufacturing Engineering, and took a job in Aerospace out in Washington State making twice that. However, what I noticed was that the Dominoe's Pizza drivers ("Deliverators".......too obscure?) were making $6 / hr with dental out here while I was making that with an Associates back there. Man, I felt shafted. I can't believe my Mom still works at that sweatshop back there in the Midwest.......

      When you take your early assignments, you really need a growth plan for your career.........noone is going to do it for you. Plan on spending 2 - 3 years at your first Breweries to gain experience and salary. DO NOT move to another assignment and accept less in wage. Your next employer will look at your last pay as a yardstick of your value. Remember, you are NOT going to retire at these places and most probably won't retire in Brewing.

      The size of the company is indeed a factor, as Beauxman can atest, and small companies are really hard to get any decent coin from. More often than not it's not because they are cheap, but because they are broke. Small companies are often times hand to mouth operations and they can be fun to work at while you are young and have no attachments. However, they are all resume builders and can give credibility and references.
      Unfortunately, some of the owners of what I nausiously call "Brewpubs" have no clue as to the needs, effort, and creativity it takes to be a Brewmaster in a small, adverse, Brewery. [BTW - "Brewpubs" is a worn carpet phrase shamed out of conversation due to all the IPO failures of the late '90s. I have always subscribed at Diamond Knot that we are a Brewery first and an Alehouse second.........a "Brewery with an Alehouse", not a "Brewpub. Sorry for the digression, and it is my humble opinion only.]

      The owners that have not brewed or have no undertsanding will see you more or less something akin to kitchen staff. Sniff these guys out early and DO NOT work for/with them if you can possibley avoid it. You may end up with 2 - 3 years you can't resume because of a big falling out at the end. Talk with teh owner, if he's brewed, start there. If he's brewed on the system you're using, that's even better. He knows how tough or easy it is.

      One last bit of advise is to always remember that YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. I have seen my share of grads from Brewing Programs that are essentually educated alcoholics and good time Charlie's with a short shingle. Always be professional and you will always be treated professionally. Having some handcrafted beverages with an appreciating customer is great..........getting hammered and leaving your tun full of spent grain and then going on vacation to leave someone else to clean it is not (can you tell this happened to me?). Stay out of Alehouse staff politics, too. They got their world and you've got yours.

      Further, like you should never go to a position of lesser pay, you should not go to a smaller Brewing system. Size = Cash, unless you're working for a large chain, then they'll move you around a bit between rigs.

      Aside form my rants here and there, it is a fun career. However, getting the most from it financially is a course you must lay out in the first few years.

      Good luck!

      Comment


      • #4
        why is it so hard to make a decent wage as a brewer? Is it the owners invested money in equipment, building, tables, chairs, glasses etc that the loan are so large that paying decent wages is tough?
        Making a batch of beer is cheaper than buying a case of beer.

        Thanks

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        • #5
          beer production costs, brewery overhead and brewers salaries

          Brewing beer is enormously expensive, commercially or at home.

          If all you are counting is input costs such as grain, hops, water and yeast, it is no wonder that you think brewing a batch of beer is cheaper than buying a case of beer.

          At the home brew level of five gallons, add to the input costs, the costs of energy to brew the batch, to chill the wort, to control fermentation temperatures, to condition the beer, to bottle the beer...

          the costs of your equipment divided by the number of batches you have made... plus any interest payments...

          and rent for the space involved...

          and finally, your labor: 1 hour to purchase ingredients and plan the brew... 6+ hours to brew... 1 hour to rack... 2 hours to bottle... what is your labor worth? $6.00/hour??? $16.00/hour??? That's 10 hours of labor. $60 minimum and $160 maximum, just for labor.

          add up all of the costs and we're talking about nearly $100 to $200 for a five gallon batch of homebrew, 2 cases of beer that retail at $35 each, $70.00...

          and at home you don't have to worry about the costs of selling the beer...

          and you think that is profitable???

          now make similar calculations for the commercial scale: the bigger the system, the more efficiently the beer is produced, but also the greater the size of the loan and the greater the amount of interest being paid... and the greater the difficulty in reaching breakeven volumes of sales which for a twenty barrel wholesale brewery can run minimum at 2400 - 3000 barrels of beer a year... not an easy amount of beer to sell in your first, second, third or fourth year...

          Hundreds of thousands of dollars for a new brewing system at 5 - 10% annual interest... meaning that over time you are paying maybe twice as much for the equipment plus the costs of servicing the loan...

          thousands of dollars in energy costs per month...

          $1 to $3 plus per square foot for commercial property; wholesale production being much cheaper than brewpub, but also garnering far less in sales dollars...
          2000 - 6000 square feet...

          excise taxes... $7 per barrel federal, $6.20 per barrel in the state of California... 4.25 cents per gallon... plus sales tax in the brewpub, 29 cents on a $4 pint of beer...

          labor costs: production, wholesale, bartenders, waitstaff, management, bookkeeper, janitor, cooks, etc.

          legal fees... marketing fees... delivery costs... packaging... brewery insurance... workmen's compensation... health insurance... accounting costs... etc., etc.

          we haven't even pointed out owner compensation for risking hundreds of thousands of dollars, having the plan to begin with and putting in endless hours of work...

          In short, it is very difficult to make a profit in this industry. Why do you think that after 25 years, there are only ~1400 micros/brewpubs??? Fewer now, than there were even five years ago??? Even the big guys over the last 25 years have thinned out a lot.

          Admittedly, some owners underpay or seemingly undervalue their brewers, but that's only because they are under such enormous financial pressures and constrictions to make their operations work at all... but, most owners are paying whatever they can, in line with the market and in lieu of the competition's costs...

          I suggest that if you are a brewer you are in it for only one or two possible reasons: (1) that you love the craft and money is not important, or (2) that some day you intend on making money in this industry. If the latter, then you probably aspire to be an owner some day and it would behoove you to make some comprehensive calculations regarding the operating and overhead costs of a brewing and sales operation. I would start with the operation that you are currently working in... Only after you have made thorough calculations will you be in a position to discuss with authority the pay rates of brewers. Believe me, you will appreciate the owner more at that point and he will appreciate you for trying to understand the position he is in...

          I have been both a brewer and an owner and have been on both sides of the argument.

          Generally speaking, the employees know almost nothing of what they are talking about. I personally had brewers and sales people that had ownership positions in the company, and they still refused to look at the numbers and cooperate with management. They complained of not making enough money, but they all took home more than me, rarely worked a full 40 hour week and were paid more than most on the average in the industry. I, meanwhile, worked 80 - 100+ hours a week and brought home between $3.75 and $4.68 an hour. Ultimately, my business failed because our overhead and production costs were too high and I simply could not find the last investment capital I needed post 9-11. I lost fourteen years of my career as a result.

          Find out what it truly means to be in the business of brewing before you commit to this career and before you criticize owners. Against the likes of Anhueser-Busch, SABMiller and Molson-Coors, plus a host of mega-imports, the competition is truly daunting and truly fierce.

          No owner likes a whiny brewer.

          Hate me if you like, but someone had to say it. I am doing brewers a favor by pointing out the true costs of a brewery, like it or not. Do your homework.

          Comment


          • #6
            Wow..........

            Wow, Rebelo..........as an owner of a Brewery and a former Brewmaster..............well put. Bravo.

            Comment


            • #7
              Why is it hard for a brewer to make a decent wage? Because some moron is willing to do it for $6 an hour. There are guys who hate their other jobs so much, they're lined up out the door waiting for the "glamorous brewer job". After six months, they realize there a lot more to brewing beer than they thought, quit, and then there's the next guy(moron) in line.
              Scott Isham
              Harper's Brewpub

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              • #8
                rebelo,
                you laid that out really well and it was very informative.

                thanks kev

                Comment


                • #9
                  If there wasn't money in brewing, no one would be brewing.

                  Beer is ~94% water. Yes it is capital intensive. Yes it costs money to make beer. It isnt enormously expensive. Depending on your business model and business sense, you may or may not succeed. Many people succeed and earn a great living while doing so!

                  A good brewer should be paid a decent salary. It doesnt make sense to enter the industry today after having spent 6-10K on an education (or more if you have a BS) and get stuck making $12/hr for 2-5 yrs before you get a decent head brewer job! Even then you're still going to make less than $35K/yr. Not worth it! Keep brewing as your hobby.

                  An owner intent on making the best beer possible will recognize a brewers true worth, and pay him accordingly. Going cheap buys a brewer that's "good enough."

                  Good Enough never is!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Brian for the words of wisdom, I agree with all points. As to the other post about brewers not understanding the cost of business....not this guy. I have a degree in business management and years of brewing experience. Yes, this is a hard business to make a dollar at, yes it can be done, and I know about the true cost of making beer, not just COGS. In my humble opinion, there are too many "genius" types trying to get into the beer business and discounting the brewers thinking that it is just about filling tanks with liquid. I don't expect to make a killing, but I do expect to reap the rewards for what I bring to the table. I don't want to be punished for bad business decisions made by people that should not be in the position to own breweries....and then complain that the brewer who is putting them on the map wants more than 12.00 per hour.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Whiney owners not needed either

                      That is a 2 way street about whiners!
                      Every business requires the owner manager to be on their towes if not you go down the tube!
                      I have brewed professionly and still consult(pays my homebrew bill) but I am back working in an underpaid industry again(horticulture). I here owners say the same thing, damn that 5.5$/hr employee isnt honest or wont kill themselves for the company, what causes that!
                      I am now an owner and do everything myself from taxes to sales. I enjoy all the different jobs. I make nothing except the investment in the business! It costs a lot of money to start any business right. Dont expect your employees to invest their time for free, anything in Oklahoma under 8$ is free labor. I wont pay anybody less than that in my business but then wouldnt hesitate to fire them if they didnt produce. Cant afford to get rid of them if you dont pay them!
                      There are special problems in every industry but the biggest problem is bad decision makers, in my opinion.
                      I predicted the shortage of good brewers long ago because most people who got in it(business side) thought the novelty itself would carry the business and the product, marketing and sales didnt matter!
                      Doug A Moller
                      Brewmaster
                      The Moller Brew House
                      (405)226-3111

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What determines a good brewer?
                        I been a homebrewer for over two years, ok so I have a basic knowledge of making beer. What if I when to Seibel or ABG does that make me a better brewer who should get more income?
                        30K a year with no overtime is around $14 per hour is a good brewer worth that to a owner?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Turn Over is Expensive

                          The absolute worst thing any Business can have is high turnover. If you do have high turnover there is a very good chance your not taking care of the people that work for you or you need some serious interpersonal communications work so people can deal with being around you. Either way the most expensive thing to have in any company is turnover it affects all aspects of operations in some direct or indirect way. You can tell the breweries that have high turnover they end up having very little consistency in there product witch effects the overall quality control of a product that is supposed to have some kind of consistency for your customer base. Cheap Brewers are actually Expensive and detrimental to a brewery, the best investment any brewery can make is in there Brewing Staff. If you hire quality well trained, experienced brewers and pay them well you will in return get a brewer that actually takes pride in his job and the company and the people he works for. Think about it it's a no Brainer.
                          If anyone in the industry needs an example of a company that puts a high emphasis on there people that work for them go take a Tour of New Belgium Brewing Company I had the opportunity to be interviewed twice for an open position there the Vibe of the entire place was so good it was scary but none the less I'm sure they are not a Utopia either all places have there problems but it is very evident they take the time to listen to there peoples needs and concerns and follow through on them. I would recommend to every one in this industry as a production manager or owner as well as employee to look into W. Edwards Deming Institute http://www.deming.org/index.html they have allot of very valuable management information. I have been a very big fan of this guy and his management Philosophy’s for the last ten years and I hope this can help others out there as much as it has me.
                          Mike Hall

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                          • #14
                            Great thread

                            A few months ago I was asked to help some guy out who wanted to move back to India, having spent perhaps 20 or 30 years here in the UK.

                            This would have been brilliant to include this in all the bumf I gave him to look at and consider.

                            I simply asked him to draw up a proper business plan considering the normal start up aspects discussed so often here (plus the cultural shock of returning to India). He pretty soon got the message - there is not a heap of money to be made as an owner, let alone as one of his employees.

                            I have a friend who brews and markets on his own, taking about 45 % of production capacity in a micro, without the capital costs, and he is not exactly flush. So yes - I echo the sentiments, including those of some of the management gurus such as Deming.

                            Ah well, at least we are all happy in our poverty. Aren't we guys ?
                            dick

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                            • #15
                              How much a good brewer and brewmaster should make

                              If you ask me, a good brewer (experienced) should make at least $12 an hour to start and a good brewmaster should make at least $35K per year to start.

                              Anything less really doesn't recognize the value added that these guys bring to the company. Really, if you think about it, these guys are key personnel. Some companies go as far as to get "key man insurance" on guys like this. This says that these guys are a lot more than just monkeys filling up tanks with water.

                              From what I've heard New Belgium and some of the larger chain brewpubs really understand this and treat their brewers accordingly. New Belgium is also enlightened in many of its other management practices, I understand.

                              Make sure you research your potential employers history with its brewers before you sign on. Make sure the information you get is accurate, however. You will find a very wide range of pay and attitudes.

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