Chinese Manufacturers - Payment Terms

[leehammerton]

I have had a few quotes from a handful of Chinese manufacturers and am possibly going to initially buy 5 x 24hl fermenters, but still deciding on which company.

In regards to payment terms I have heard of people that did the below:

- 50% Upfront, 50% upon proof of shipping
- 1/3rd up front, then 1/3rd after mods and 1/3rd on shipment. $5000 held back until the ship docked.

But my ideal would be to have a contract that full payment is not paid until vessels are received without any remedial work being required and if there was any work required then this would be deducted from invoice at full cost as well as additional penalty costs for production delays incurred. Thanks for the suggestion ‘Dick Murton’.

I was just wondering has anyone who bought equipment from China had such a payment agreement or is it a fruitless task asking for one that is stacked in the purchasers favour??

[NCBS]

You can ask anything you want. Now getting any deal like that is a whole different story. What company are you looking at?

Cheers
Jay

[leehammerton]

You can ask anything you want. Now getting any deal like that is a whole different story. What company are you looking at?

Cheers
Jay

Zhondge mainly as have had a few good reviews of the tanks we want to buy, but also looking at Shendongin, both seem like respectable companies i.e. not rip off mechants.

[maspeter11]

Zhondge mainly as have had a few good reviews of the tanks we want to buy, but also looking at Shendongin, both seem like respectable companies i.e. not rip off mechants.

It seems like the tank quality of these two companies are not good,
I don't know what prices you received,but I don't suggest you to buy their tanks

[maspeter11]

Zhondge mainly as have had a few good reviews of the tanks we want to buy, but also looking at Shendongin, both seem like respectable companies i.e. not rip off mechants.

You can let them give you more clearly photoes,and take photoes for the welding,corner,etc
Check their details,don't look at their photoes which were taken from far away.

[nateo]

It seems like the tank quality of these two companies are not good,
I don't know what prices you received,but I don't suggest you to buy their tanks

I think you're on to something.

Chinese companies don't buy local. They import, because the quality is better. Now, if you assume Chinese companies know a thing or two about making money, and they also think it's "worth it" to pay more for a better product, what does that tell you?

I asked a Chinese manufacturing executive who works in the same town as Zhongde about Chinese brewing equipment. He's familiar with their work, and knows a few people who work there. He told me Chinese manufacturers never buy manufacturing equipment from China, they buy German-made equipment. Same with the breweries he knows of.

[nateo]

Seeing is believing.

Please don't misunderstand me. My friend told me that the welders at Zhongde are as good as anywhere in the world, and the poor quality people have experienced is due to management pushing them too hard to cut corners and put our shoddy products.

I'm curious, how much of your plant and equipment was made in China?

[wailingguitar]

Hi, I don't think "pushing" is the right word. We (Zhongde) have almost 300 orders a year. And employees work 8 hours a day, 25 days a month. Is that wrong to let welders (and sales person like me) work hard during the eight hours? And that doesn't mean "cut corners". I admit you're right that we do have some quality problems with the equipment, but most of the problems can be solved. And we will do our best to compensate for the flaws that can't be repaired. We have already purchased the laser welder, and the quality is more guaranteed. Anyone is welcome to visit Zhongde workshop.

To tell the truth, I don't know how much the quantity is, but I do know that our domestic sales last year was 120 million RMB (20 million in US DOLLARS).

Thank you,
Ivan

This is interesting, thank you. It is certainly refreshing to see someone admit that they are not perfect. Now, as to your assertion that you will do your "best to compensate for the flaws that can't be repaired". How do we go about making sure that happens? When dealing with a domestic supplier or a domestic middle man, we can go to them with the law on our side... however, when dealing with a foreign company directly that simply isn't practical. If I order a tank and the welds are horrid and have to be redone, what happens? What if there are issues of rust that keep occurring? What if a tank is truly beyond repair, what then? The last I have witnessed first hand with a North American supplier and we, ultimately, ended up not paying for the useless tank.

[THL]

Unfounded skepticism

Personally I've seen some good work come out of China. A lot better than some I've seen from well known companies in the UK. However if your making a big order I would spend some of the money your saving on a trip out there to snag before it's shipped to you. I know of a brew pub in the UK who have had pretty much everything from Jinan Haolu. They seems pretty happy with it. PM me and I'll send you details if you wanted to view it.

[Natrat]

If you're going to spend enough to buy a bunch of fermenters...and you're going to save as much as you will buying Chinese instead of locally...then pony up the cash for a $2500 trip to China to inspect the fermenters before they get loaded for shipping. And if you don't feel qualified to inspect the tanks, then send somebody who is.

Also, every time they make these vessels, it is made to order...not sitting in stock. You can look at the drawings before hand, and make the changes you want! Don't like that weird standpipe in the bottom? Put a 6" triclamp fitting at the bottom of the cone instead! PRV too high up to adjust? Have an arm put it at eye level! Need an extra mini-manway for dry-hopping? No problem.

I have found that virtually all the Chinese manufacturers that are set up to do stainless properly CAN do a great job.

I recently bought a mash tun from a US manufacturer, and the quality of the fabrication is embarrassing when I compare it to the Chinese equipment next to it.

Things to look for when you visit:
-Are the brakes and rollers used for only stainless steel, or do they roll mild steel as well (which is bad)
-Are workers on ladders and ropes or do they have stable platforms to work on?
-Are they using MIG welders on tank seams? (if they are, go somewhere else)
-Is there a welding inspector on site?
-Is there a pressure testing apparatus?

10 years ago, no one would buy equipment they hadn't inspected first.

Good Luck
Nat

[dick murton]

"10 years ago, no one would buy equipment they hadn't inspected first. "

This still applies, though a trip out to China is far more than 2.5k by the time you account for all the other crap that is inevitably required

If you have a reputable importer who does that, I would tust them to do the initial screening. Though I do appreciate the comment. We certainly inspect all kit, but since it has all been european, then the inspection expenses to Germany for example on a 5 million project area comparatively minor. If it is sourced from the UK, then perhaps an overnighter and a couple of hire cars - so pretty cheap

[DowneastCider]

We used a Letter of Credit with our local bank. The chinese company (Sheenstar) accepted it with no questions.

Good:
-don't lose anything if they don't meet the terms, cancel the order and get all your money back quickly

Bad:
-if you really need the equipment you are stuck and have to put up with whatever delays they have (took us a couple extra months)
-payment due upon shipping from china (at least that is what we negotiated)

The Letter of Credit would be great if you could combine it with an inspection and pay 50% upon inspection (by you or someone you trust...obviously adds cost to travel to China) and 50% upon shipping.

[Natrat]

Dick, my comment was more to the tone of how many people seem to be buying equipment sight unseen these days. Did you see the thread from the poor guy who bought from Brew-Stuff or whatever it was called?

People, a brewhouse is a big investment, and the low Chinese prices are attractive. But treat it as a big investment. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is!

I get burned on eBay all the time, though. Gotta start listening to myself.

Nat

[leehammerton]

Dick, my comment was more to the tone of how many people seem to be buying equipment sight unseen these days. Did you see the thread from the poor guy who bought from Brew-Stuff or whatever it was called?

People, a brewhouse is a big investment, and the low Chinese prices are attractive. But treat it as a big investment. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is!

I get burned on eBay all the time, though. Gotta start listening to myself.

Nat

Thanks for all your comments guys, much appreciated. I think it is a weigh up and obviously a risk but hopefully by only obtaining the FV's from China to start with, I am taking a calculated risk,I have spoken to around 10 people who have bought from the company in question so hopefully the quality will be the same as everyone else.

Nat, was trying to find the post you were referring too, but no joy, can you point me in the right direction as would be keen to read it.