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Lumberjack
07-17-2013, 09:32 AM
OK so I believe I've read all the previous posts twice (at least).

My question is I need a trench drain that can handle fork lift traffic so here are my options that I can swing on my budget.

Buy a Zurn or NDS HDPE drain with ductile iron grating at around $60 a foot or my concrete contractor (who I know does a good job) says he could form one in, cut a lip and use mild or ss steel grating.

Having one poured in sounds better to me, because of the following reasons:

1. It's repairable (a little hydraulic cement goes a long way)
2. If it fails you don't have to jack hammer it out of the floor
3. There is no steel parts to get eat up and have to shell out a lot of dough to replace
4. It's a lot cheaper!

I would think it would be a lot cheaper to pay for a big money epoxy in a concrete trench to keep the chems from chewing up the concrete.

I worked in a brewery with an NDS dura slope and it seemed solid, but does this sound better or am I missing something?

porter
07-17-2013, 10:52 AM
We installed NDS Duraslope drains with plastic grates and have been using them with no problems since April. We had the floor epoxy coated around them.

The drains have reinforcements for the grates every 6" that are also plastic. I drive our 6200lb capacity forklift over them with no problems.

I have never heard of epoxy coating a concrete drain so can't speak to that.

yap
07-17-2013, 12:02 PM
+1 on NDS drains. I will say though that the plastic grates are susceptible to point load failure. While the big forklift tires may be OK (as previously stated), roll a pallet jack with grain on it over an area between the reinforments and you will end up poking a wheel through guaranteed. I got so many holes in mine I had to switch to the ductile grates.

can't speak from experience but I would worry about a poured concrete drain that wasn't epoxied real well. Between the chemicals and the hot water I would think you would get some degradation of the concrete over time. spackling over cracks and holes with new concrete probably wouldn't last very long.

but again i have no first hand experience with that....

GlacierBrewing
07-17-2013, 01:26 PM
Thumbs up again for NDS but the pallet jack wheel issue is a very real PITA! I would not go with a poured trench without some sort of "liner" in it due to the acidic nature of the chems and beer etching away at it over the years. Sure, you can patch with hydraulic cement but it would shut down production until it cures.

Scott, where did you source your ductile grates from?

Prost!
Dave

yap
07-17-2013, 02:43 PM
the local supplier of the NDS. they stock plastic and ductile, but have to order the stainless...

i don't think the ductile are a permanent solution. load bearing is not an issue but they are basically a coated steel. the coating is already starting to wear off in some areas (less than 6 months) and I am afraid they will begin to surface rust. although not a structural issue i hate to have rust streaks on the floor. I will try to replace a few at a time with stainless as they start to get rusty...

when new hot water running over them makes a terrible burnt plastic smell as the hot water apparently erodes the coating...

if you can go stainless do it. I had to replace 16 at a time as there were so damn many wheel holes you couldn't walk on them anymore. if i was replacing 2-3 at a time i would have done stainless...

Lumberjack
07-17-2013, 04:27 PM
Please if you have tried the formed concrete trench let me know, really would like to know how it works before I drop $2K on a poly trench.

Like I said I've have worked in a brewery that used NDS before, that would be the one on the floor at Glacier (thanks Dave!). After 10 years of pallet jacks the plastic grates show their wear.

The big problem I have/had with the NDS, Zern, etc. is that a ductile iron frame goes with the ductile iron grates and the frame gets permanently anchored in your concrete. Like Scott said the grates are showing wear after 6 months, BUT if the poly frame can fit the ductile iron grates now that changes my mind quite a bit, and with the price difference between ductile iron and stainless (I think you could buy like 5+ ductile iron for each stainless) I think I'll go with the iron...thanks Scott!

Hey Dave, NDS has a nice little search tool for suppliers on their website, although when I went there in the lower left hand corner it says the tool doesn't work for the Northwest, and they say contact the Frank J Martin company...so I guess that's your supplier.

Na Zdrowie,

Matt

redlodgesam
07-18-2013, 09:17 AM
Please if you have tried the formed concrete trench let me know, really would like to know how it works before I drop $2K on a poly trench.

Like I said I've have worked in a brewery that used NDS before, that would be the one on the floor at Glacier (thanks Dave!). After 10 years of pallet jacks the plastic grates show their wear.

The big problem I have/had with the NDS, Zern, etc. is that a ductile iron frame goes with the ductile iron grates and the frame gets permanently anchored in your concrete. Like Scott said the grates are showing wear after 6 months, BUT if the poly frame can fit the ductile iron grates now that changes my mind quite a bit, and with the price difference between ductile iron and stainless (I think you could buy like 5+ ductile iron for each stainless) I think I'll go with the iron...thanks Scott!

Hey Dave, NDS has a nice little search tool for suppliers on their website, although when I went there in the lower left hand corner it says the tool doesn't work for the Northwest, and they say contact the Frank J Martin company...so I guess that's your supplier.

Na Zdrowie,

Matt

We have a formed trench. if you have a good concrete contractor it works fine. Make sure the trench slopes 1/8" per foot toward the drain. (we have a drain at either end of the trench.) we coated our trench with epoxy so the beer and chemicals would not eat away at it. we have a 1" mild steel grate that can support forklift traffic. don't forget a slope to the trench.

good luck
sam

kyle.carbaugh
07-19-2013, 01:03 PM
I installed an Aco drain in my brewhouse and couldn't be happier with it. They have a couple of different materials and load ratings for them, but we went with a polymer concrete/vinyl ester concrete mix -- great chemical resistance and anti-microbial properties. Relatively inexpensive for the channel, relatively inexpensive top grate. But here's the best feature: no stainless steel top rail (which drives up the price), no galvanized top rail (which sucks against heat and chemicals over time).

Check them out at www.acousa.com/drain/.

fvbrew
09-03-2014, 08:22 PM
I installed an Aco drain in my brewhouse and couldn't be happier with it. They have a couple of different materials and load ratings for them, but we went with a polymer concrete/vinyl ester concrete mix -- great chemical resistance and anti-microbial properties. Relatively inexpensive for the channel, relatively inexpensive top grate. But here's the best feature: no stainless steel top rail (which drives up the price), no galvanized top rail (which sucks against heat and chemicals over time).

Check them out at www.acousa.com/drain/.

Kyle,

From what I can find, ACO only offers the stainless (ks100) or galvanized (k100) rail on their Klassic trench drain. It seems ABT offers one without the steel rail though. Maybe I am missing something?

Mike

Starcat
09-04-2014, 05:20 AM
If you are buying pre-made I would avoid the ones with curved bottoms.
They are hard to tie in an outlet to and then harder to get any kind of a screen in because of the curve.
Flat bottom is superior in all respects.
You DO need an outlet screen in addition to the top grates.

kyle.carbaugh
09-04-2014, 09:55 AM
Kyle,

From what I can find, ACO only offers the stainless (ks100) or galvanized (k100) rail on their Klassic trench drain. It seems ABT offers one without the steel rail though. Maybe I am missing something?

Mike

The model we have is the NW100 -- it's 100% polyester polymer concrete... no top rail, just a groove that the grates fit into. They don't have a lot of NW100 specific literature, simply because it's pretty much the same as the K100, only a slightly different configuration on the top rail. The literature you can find is here: http://www.acodrain.us/resources.html --> Spec Info --> NW100.

There's multiple ways you can install the discharge of the trench to connect with your main; we went with a discharge out of the side of the deepest section mainly because of necessity. Our sewer line terminated before entering into our space. The line was only 12 inches deep where it terminated, so we had to put in a lift station and all of the drainage in the brewery feeds to the lift station (~ 75 ft. away from the furthest drain).

Because of the length of the run, we needed to be as shallow as possible at the end of the 75 ft -- exactly where the trench drain was. If I had to do it over again, I'd install a bottom discharge with catch basin and do a little more digging for the lift station. We're not using any screen or filter in the trench drain, but haven't seen any problems other than the occasional clogging of the lift station pump from dirt / gravel / random popcorn kernels (the bane of my existence in the tap room). An easy fix when you know what to look for.

I can't speak to the curved vs. flat channel, but Aco makes the tie-ins between trench sections and discharge outlets stupid simple. Just be careful when you drill the concrete -- use a small bit and make many holes. My plumber tried to use a 3/4" hammer drill bit when we were going to go with the bottom discharge, and broke off the end of one of the sections causing a 2 week delay. That was a dark day for plumbing at the brewery.....

Cheers!
KC

TGTimm
09-04-2014, 10:46 AM
We use formed trench drains exclusively. Some are round-bottomed (formed with a piece of 6" PVC pipe), some are flat. No difference in performance. Some of our drains were epoxy-coated when the old brewhouse was built in '98, the newer ones are uncoated. The epoxy has mostly peeled off of the old drains, and the new (7 yr+) drains are holding up fine without the coating.

We originally used 1" thick FRP grids at our crossing points, resting on formed ledges. These eventually failed under forklift/ pallet jack pressure, fortunately not catastrophically. We now use solid 5/16" SS diamond-plate with SS angle-iron locators/reinforcement welded to the bottom. These hold up better than anything we've tried, and are easy to lift up when cleaning the drains.

Open trench drains are very easy to clean.

BeerBred
09-06-2014, 04:29 PM
Just got rough Aco quote, $135'

kyle.carbaugh
09-08-2014, 01:05 PM
Just got rough Aco quote, $135'

We paid $85 per 3 meter channel plus $80 for the composite resin grates ( with SS retaining clips. You'll have end caps, catch basins and dischrage connections on top of the per channel/per grate csot. Any quote you get from Aco is going to be per 3 meter channel. Deb Kornes is the outside sales rep I spoke with, and she was top notch.

bwalden234
10-13-2014, 12:45 PM
I have read a lot of posts about trench drains here and it seems that there is a difference of opinion on HDPE vs. formed concrete drains (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). In our situation the town has asked us to sequester our brewing/cleaning effluent in holding tanks to stabilize the PH between 6 - 9 and get the temp at or under 100 degrees (thought the temp thing was a little overkill, but hey sometimes you just have to play ball) so we don't hurt the treatment plant the town uses. So with that in mind am I wrong to think that our trench drains will under go less chemical stress? There will be no forklift in our brewery but there will be a pallet jack so I understand the need for heavy duty grate, but could we go with the HDPE or is it cheaper to have the trench formed when they pour our floor?

Bill
Oddball Brewing Co. (in buildout)
Pembroke NH