Water Profile Questions (High Alkalinity Treatment Options)

[scottatron]

I'm starting a brewery that is a few months away from receiving equipment. The system will be 15 bbl with 30 bbl fermenters with brew days consisting of two brews that day. HLT is 45 bbl in size. I'm currently evaluating my water profile and water treatment options and looking for any opinions on treatment methods. The city water draws from three wells which come from the same aquifer so I've been told that there should not be any changes depending on the season. The well the city draws from varies from day to day. Here is a summary of the water profile provided by the region:



Issues with the water:

1. High Iron content which can be filtered out prior to HLT.
2. Taste and smell test indicates high level of sulphur (not on report) and chlorine. This can be filtered out using the iron filter as well as activated carbon (currently doing tests). I've been told that the iron filter will remove the sulphur as well.
3. High alkalinity value

If I were to brew a blond lager (100% pilsner malt for example), as I currently see it, I have a few options to treat the alkalinity:

1. Acidify all water in my HLT to a lower pH range to reduce the alkalinity and to limit the extraction of tannins during the sparge. Every brewery that I worked has never added acid directly to the HLT as they have all been in low alkalinity areas and hitting mash pH has never been an issue. If it was, small additions of CaCl or small amount of acidulated malt has always done the trick.

2. Acidify the mash water only when mashing in to reach 5.2-5.6 when malt is added (experiment to find right number). Perhaps aim for the lower end and then hopefully I will reach my pre-boil volume before the pH raises above 5.8.

3. Dilute HLT with RO or distilled water. I'd rather not do this as I would not have to rely on an external source and incur another expense but it is an option.

4. Put an RO system in place and use that for all brewing water and add salts back. An issue with this would be what to do when using water for CIP/sanitation. I've read that using RO water can be corrosive to stainless. Anybody have any input in what to do about process water in this instance? I cannot use city water straight from the pipe as it has a very strong/pungent sulphur odour and flavour. If I have an RO system, perhaps be able to pull of some before the removal of minerals (after iron filter, softener and carbon filter but before membranes)? Or maybe after iron filter, and carbon filter but before softener? If I have a softener, Iron may be removed but I'm not sure if it will remove the sulphur. I want my process water to be soft, correct?

Also, what about trace minerals? Copper, zinc and potassium? Will a yeast nutrient have everything I would need that would be removed by RO?

5. Other methods I'd rather not do as it requires to separate the water from the sediment generated. These would be boiling and the slaked lime method.

Any brewers reading this have a brewery in a high alkaline area and treat all their brewing liquor? Perhaps lowering the pH to 7, 6 or perhaps lower in the HLT to reduce the alkalinity to hit the target mash pH with a light grist? Or is RO water system my only option in this case?

Thanks in advance and I appreciate any input.

[dick murton]

Issues with the water:

High Iron content (and sulphur taints)which can be filtered out prior to HLT. – What with? Presumably ion exchange resins?.
High alkalinity value water treatment

The trouble with acidifying all water in the HLT is that if you use sulphuric acid, then the sulphate ion content will be off the scale and not be suitable for lager brewing, and you will end up with calcium sulphate scale all over the insides of the tank, and particularly on any heating surfaces. I don’t advise using hydrochloric acid as this may well cause pitting corrosion, leading to stress corrosion cracking of the stainless steel tanks. The chloride ion content will also unacceptably high for traditional lager brewing. Phosphoric acid will also lead to large amounts of scale being deposited. You will benefit from having a degassing / mineral settlement cold water tank to remove the CO2 produced by treating with acid.

I guess you could use lactic acid, but my suspicion is that this will not be as effective as one of the mineral acids mentioned previously, though am happy to be corrected as I have not used lactic or other organic acids for treating high carbonate water.

Ion exchange – probably stupidly expensive running costs for this level of carbonate / bicarb.

You need to treat both mashing and sparge water, so treating only the mashing in water is not sensible, as the pH will rise if the sparge water is untreated.

My suggestion is that it would be far simpler to put in a large enough RO plant to treat all the brewing and CIP water, so removing the iron, free suphur / H2S etc. and high levels of carbonate / bicarbonate in a single process.

RO is not a problem to stainless. However, water with carbonate / bicarbonate will lead to high chemical usage because so much is required to counter the effects of the CO3 / HCO3. You are liable to get hard water scale build up, particularly in heated water / detergent tanks.
You will probably have to remove all traces of chlorine before running the water through an RO plant as chlorine is highly destructive to at least some types of semi-permeable membrane material.

Trace minerals – Copper and zinc can be added by adding proprietary yeast foods, or even using some sacrificial copper or brass which contain both zinc and copper. You don’t need to add potassium separately.
If you are brewing pilsener type lagers, just consider that the pilsen area water is virtually mineral free – not far off RO water, and they appear to have been brewing successfully for a good few years!

[ATB Consulting]

Excellent advice from Dick Murton as usual: )

I would add that the R.O. option worked well for me as well on a 15 bbl system. This allows you to treat your mash water to help build the water to your desired profile thus adding nutrients for your yeast as well. The R.O. was also fantastic for CIP's and I would also use it to clean the exterior of the tanks as well leaving them sparkling clean! No issues with corrosion.

As Dick mentioned, R.O. is not an issue for stainless, however, if not using stainless ensure that you don't use copper for R.O. water as it will deteriorate the pipe! I usually see PVC being used to transfer R.O. water to HLT's or CLT's.

Best,

Aaron

[jwalts]

I can vouch for the effectiveness of using lactic acid, but the problem with using it in the HLT is that some of your calcium carbonate will have already precipitated out - both in the HLT and in the heat exchanger while you're cooling your wort - before you dose the tank. If you can get a ballpark estimate of your alkalinity when you dose, lactic acid is great for knocking it down to about 50 mg/L. From there, you can make small tweaks in the mash to hit your target calcium level and pH (e.g. with calcium chloride, gypsum, acidulated malt and a carbonate source). The Water_Barrels spreadsheet on this website will do the math for you:

https://sites.google.com/site/narrowsbrewing/

If you can buy a cold liquor tank to supply your HLT, both directly and through your heat exchanger, you'll eliminate the guesswork and your lactic acid-treated water won't deposit scale on your equipment.

Joe

[dick murton]

"but the problem with using it in the HLT is that some of your calcium carbonate will have already precipitated out - both in the HLT and in the heat exchanger while you're cooling your wort - before you dose the tank"

Good point. I forgot to mention that. As soon as the water gets hot, much of the calcium bicarbonate will decompose to calcium carbonate at best, and then get deposited, also releasing CO2 as gas, - which will entail regular and expensive acid cleaning to maintain the heat transfer efficiency and tank hygiene. So I agree with the need to have a cold water tank which only contains treated liquor, before it is passed through the heat exchanger, or transferred into the hot liquor tank prior to heating.

[scottatron]

Thanks for all the replies. I am currently evaluating an RO system that may be able to take care of both brewing and process needs. It looks promising so far.

[nohandslance]

Fluoride in water

Never had this high level of Fluoride come up, did 3 tests, Average is 1.5 mg/L, MCL is listed at 2.0/4.0 mg/L, Seems high, any suggestions.
All in coming water goes through a boil kettle vapor condensate heat exchanger system. Wort chiller is single pass 100% glycol cooled to 58 degrees. In a desert area, Conservation of water is of essence, so R/O is not an option.

Lance
Rebel Malting Co.
Reno, Nevada USA

[dick murton]

Have to say that I have never heard of fluoride being a problem, so have never seen a spec for it. I assume from your comments that it is above the potable water limits. If this is the case, then I suggest you must have a local area problem or dispensation to allow this level. O have seen no comments about adverse effects of fluoride on the brewing process or final product when fluoride is at potable levels in the drinking water. Not sure what happens in the states, but some municipal supplies worldwide have added fluoride for improved dental health. I assume there must be some effect on brewing / beer at some level, but what that is, I have no idea.

As for how you remove it, because fluorine is more active than chlorine, I suspect it might be pretty difficult to use any form of ion exchange system - so the professional water treatment people will probably be the best to contact.