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Hot water sanitize.. How long is it good for?

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  • Hot water sanitize.. How long is it good for?

    Hey... We do a hot water sanitize (sterilize?) on our hoses and pipes in the morning just before brewing. 180*F+ for 30 minutes, then close off the valves.. I was wondering if there's a rough idea of how long that is good for time-wise. If you were to do that the night before, would they still be good? Certainly not looking to risk it if there's a concern there, but just got to wondering if they could survive the night after being clear.

    Thanks...
    Kyle...

  • #2
    Things that have been sanitized and sealed don't just become unsanitary… There's no such thing as spontaneous generation. 180°F for 30 min "should" be sufficient for pasteurization provided everything was thoroughly cleaned to begin with.

    That said, I'd plate some samples just to be sure.
    Sent from my Microsoft Bob

    Beer is like porn. You can buy it, but it's more fun to make your own.
    seanterrill.com/category/brewing | twomilebrewing.com

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    • #3
      There's no such thing as spontaneous generation.
      But I thought frogs came from rain?!? Everything I know is a lie!

      We just run hot liquor though our pipes and HX at the beginning of a brewday to cook everything, all part of the morning routine. Then we collect that 15 gallons or so of waste water for cleanup, blowoff buckets, watering the plants etc. But I second the idea that if you think you've sanitized it, and it's a closed system, then it should stay sanitized for quite some time. My only concern might be the effect of any vacuum caused by the cooling of that hot water, but it's probably not an issue unless you've got, like, a really crap heat exchanger.
      Russell Everett
      Co-Founder / Head Brewer
      Bainbridge Island Brewing
      Bainbridge Island, WA

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      • #4
        Ahhh... ok... cool... i was kinda hoping that might be the case about the sanitizing, but yea, if anybody else has any other thoughts, feel free to chime in here. I was trying to see if there was a list of some minor things that we might be able to do the day before brew day that could end up saving us say, an hour on brew day since it's plenty long as it is, but certainly not at the expense of the beer.

        Hmmm yea.. that's an interesting point about the vacuum. I didn't even think about that, but you're right. I'd like to think it wont be that much pressure since the amount of volume in the hose and pipes wouldn't be nearly as much as a tank, but that's still a good point, since i don't know what the pressure would be and we wouldn't want to just suck in dirty air when it's opened up either.

        Thanks guys...
        Kyle...

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        • #5
          Theoretically... a heat sanitizing should last indefinitely in a sealed environment--if you could kill allthe organisms present. If any critters are left alive (and there will be), they have the potential to reproduce to the level where they are a problem given enough time and a little food.

          Considering that the cleanest environments on Earth--clean labs at NASA, eg--cannot get completely bacteria-free, I doubt that our hoses etc. are 100% sterile. Heat sanitizing shortly before brewing is just a good practice. You'll never kill 100%, but the fewer critters the better.
          Timm Turrentine

          Brewerywright,
          Terminal Gravity Brewing,
          Enterprise. Oregon.

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          • #6
            I am in process of learning more of these industrial preferences/techniques before our opening in December.. therefore-- can I ask.. are you saying that a hot sterilization can replace a rinse free sanitizer (buckets, hoses, kettles, fermenters??).. that is how I read it and I suppose I have always just thought that I 'should' rely on my star-san. I would love to be more 'chemical' free.

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            • #7
              yes it can, and in some ways heat has advantages to a chemical sanitizer. When heat sanitizing something, you can even sanitize something that is semi-porous because the heat will elevate the temperature of the entire mass of the object you are sanitizing. sanitizer like star san doesnt always do the best job with porous surfaces.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Junkyard View Post
                yes it can, and in some ways heat has advantages to a chemical sanitizer. When heat sanitizing something, you can even sanitize something that is semi-porous because the heat will elevate the temperature of the entire mass of the object you are sanitizing. sanitizer like star san doesnt always do the best job with porous surfaces.
                This. We used to use PAA to sani our Heat-X but that required setting up a pump, running a loop, etc., plus concerns about long term storage of an acid in the Heatx if we leave it packed with PAA. So we switched to hitting it with 190 degree water from the HLT. Once you've ran enough through it the temp is up around 175-180, and we close the valves and pack it at that temp while the brewday goes on. At those temperatures, things should be pretty well pasteurized within a minute. And it's going to sit for a couple hours until we're ready to knock out.
                Russell Everett
                Co-Founder / Head Brewer
                Bainbridge Island Brewing
                Bainbridge Island, WA

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bainbridge View Post
                  This. We used to use PAA to sani our Heat-X but that required setting up a pump, running a loop, etc., plus concerns about long term storage of an acid in the Heatx if we leave it packed with PAA. So we switched to hitting it with 190 degree water from the HLT. Once you've ran enough through it the temp is up around 175-180, and we close the valves and pack it at that temp while the brewday goes on. At those temperatures, things should be pretty well pasteurized within a minute. And it's going to sit for a couple hours until we're ready to knock out.
                  My HX mfg Mueler does not recommend running it hotter then 150F. They claim that seals might fail. So check the spec of your HX.

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                  • #10
                    ??

                    You run 212 degree wort through every time you use a heat exchanger? HX's should be built with silicone seals so they can withstand the temps.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Junkyard View Post
                      ??

                      You run 212 degree wort through every time you use a heat exchanger? HX's should be built with silicone seals so they can withstand the temps.
                      When you are running product thru HX, you are also running water and glycol thru it. So even when wort is 212F in the HX never gets that hot.

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                      • #12
                        It seems to me that the temperature of the heat exchanger would be very stratified given the nature of their counter flow operation. Thus part of the heat exchanger would indeed be close to boiling temperatures. Maybe not the whole thing... But the side with the hot wort inlet should be the same side as the hot water exit.

                        At any rate, I would never purchase a heat exchanger that I can't heat sanitize.. Especially a plate chiller. That's just asking for infection.

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                        • #13
                          Yeah it's a little confusing. Mueller's operations manual says that their heat exchanger's normal operating max is 150ish. But the manual also contains CIP recommendations that include things like 195 degree PAA for up to an hour, and Caustic at 185 for up to three hours. I believe that has to do with protecting the steel from chloride pitting, but I would think they would have said something like "Oh yeah, and if you do that you'll cook your gaskets." So it seems to me that you don't want to be running it normally above 150, but short times to sanitize are probably worth any accelerated gasket wear.
                          Russell Everett
                          Co-Founder / Head Brewer
                          Bainbridge Island Brewing
                          Bainbridge Island, WA

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                          • #14
                            We heat sanitize our Mueller Accu-Therm plate HX with 195F HL. In 17 years of use, I've replaced the gaskets once--and that was preventative maintenance. We also clean with 170F caustic.
                            Timm Turrentine

                            Brewerywright,
                            Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                            Enterprise. Oregon.

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