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Correct glycol temperature - conflicting numbers

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  • Correct glycol temperature - conflicting numbers

    We're setting up a new brewery and I'm having some discussions with the engineer about the best setpoint for our glycol tank. Here's the issue:

    * The literature says you should cold condition beer at 28-30°F to achieve colloidal stability.
    * The engineer, tank manufacturer, and refrigeration guys recommend against having the glycol any colder than 28°F, as it causes wasted energy, premature wearing of parts, icing of beer on the sides of the tanks, and other issues.
    * The manufacturer of our tanks says that the lowest possible temperature for the beer to reach in our well-insulated conical unitanks is 5° over the glycol temperature. With 28°F glycol our lowest possible beer temperature would be 33°F, too warm for proper cold conditioning.

    This isn't adding up for me. How can I get the beer down to recommended temperatures without cooling the glycol below its recommended temperature? Is there anyone out there able to get beer cooled to 30°F (or lower) with 28° glycol, or successfully running their glycol below 28°F?

    Thanks,
    David Oldenburg
    Titletown Brewing Co.
    Green Bay, WI
    Last edited by Woolsocks; 05-19-2014, 05:21 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Woolsocks View Post
    We're setting up a new brewery and I'm having some discussions with the engineer about the best setpoint for our glycol tank. Here's the issue:

    * The literature says you should cold condition beer at 28-30°F to achieve colloidal stability.
    * The engineer, tank manufacturer, and refrigeration guys recommend against having the glycol any colder than 28°F, as it causes wasted energy, premature wearing of parts, icing of beer on the sides of the tanks, and other issues.
    * The manufacturer of our tanks says that the lowest possible temperature for the beer to reach in our well-insulated conical unitanks is 5° over the glycol temperature. With 28°F glycol our lowest possible beer temperature would be 33°F, too warm for proper cold conditioning.

    This isn't adding up for me. How can I get the beer down to recommended temperatures without cooling the glycol below its recommended temperature? Is there anyone out there able to get beer cooled to 30°F (or lower) with 28° glycol, or successfully running their glycol below 28°F?

    Thanks,
    David Oldenburg
    Titletown Brewing Co.
    Green Bay, WI
    It sounds like some of your imput is from people that have not had direct hands on Brewery Cooling systems and this in itself will only add to confusion.
    Your Engineering needs support from people that have experience with Brewing. Otherwise the math will not quite work out.
    The guys at Pro Refrigeration can be a great design resource, but as such you should be buying one of their chillers or contracting for Engineering assistance.
    G&D is also and excellent outfit.
    A 28F glycol system should run just about anything if everything else is correct. You can go to 26 but its not often necessary. [ We run one system only at 26F.]
    Whats being said about icing is not necessarily the case and depends on variables.

    All the best
    Warren Turner
    Industrial Engineering Technician
    HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
    Moab Brewery
    The Thought Police are Attempting to Suppress Free Speech and Sugar coat everything. This is both Cowardice and Treason given to their own kind.

    Comment


    • #3
      Some additional comments

      Its possible to be a bit too exacting with respect to numbers on a system that has not been " experienced " and " run in."
      After the design and build out, one has to start running and feel things out. This is a complex process and every single Engineering corner cut will show itself afterwards.
      AS thus its possible to get a bit too analytical with respect to what kind of temperatures will work for what processes. There are acceptable ranges and because of time and diversity of load on the system, you may not get perfect results every run.
      AS an example, there is a range for the beer temp hitting the canning line above which one will have issues.
      Allowing some real world relativity which will be the case is necessary. AS far as production goes this is very much about timing and sequencing of tasks as relates to bringing things down to temperature. If the initial Engineering is solid and based on things that have been well learned and time tested in the field, you will not go wrong. IN other words having the mechanical system assembled without it being considered a total integrated system is a mistake. This is what happens when you have a local electrician, local hvac, local plumber....etc do something from drawings and build it out with no one in the mix having real world experience in that area.
      One especially vital angle would be to tour as many operations as possible and talk to the Brewers and the Tech people involved to really gain an understanding of what works.
      A major pitfall is lack of redundancy on super cirtical systems.
      Whats happening currently in microbrewing is that everyone is attempting to reinvent the wheel.
      This approach cannot work, especially at scale.


      Sincerely
      Last edited by Starcat; 05-20-2014, 07:53 AM.
      Warren Turner
      Industrial Engineering Technician
      HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
      Moab Brewery
      The Thought Police are Attempting to Suppress Free Speech and Sugar coat everything. This is both Cowardice and Treason given to their own kind.

      Comment


      • #4
        28F glycol

        Agree Warren Turner.
        Out of the 130 breweries we work for there are only 3 that we know that run the glycol down to 25F, and it is because the tanks they have are poorly designed. The other 127 run our system at 28F glycol, and are able to get there beer down to perfit cold crashing temps!
        Cheerz Sandy Y.
        VP JC Younger Company
        J.C. Younger Company
        5626 WEST LAKE STREET
        MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55416
        (952) 929-1838

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