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bwalden234
11-15-2014, 08:03 PM
I have a quandary and I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer. I have literally read every thread in the refrigeration section trying to answer these questions (I posted this in another thread also)

We are planning on 6 - 7 barrel plastic fermenters with 50' of 1/2" or 3/4" SS coil in each and one jacketed brite (to start with). Our plan was to have an
1 1/2" PEX or sched 80 pvc header with a first in/last out return circuit. The drops would be 3/4" (?) tubing to quick disconnects and the coil through the lid for removal and cleaning. We are trying to work backwards on this to build the right system and then size the chiller to it and leave room for expansion (though expansion in this building will be limited so this will not be a permanent install). With that in mind I had a few questions:

1. Where can I find information on flow rates and for the SS coil mentioned above?

2. When the temp controller senses the need for cooling and opens the valve to allow the glycol to flow does the pump sense the change in pressure and pump harder to make up for the new open circuit(s) or is there enough flow resistance to maintain pressure in the system when fermenters are being cooled?

3. In the spirit of the 1st question, should the return circuit be sized smaller to increase flow resistance in order to maintain a pressure gradient on the feed side of the system? ie. 1 1/2" header - 3/4" drops - 1" return circuit?

4. We are looking at temp controllers hooked to solenoid or ball valves to control each fermenter individually (we are planning on a lager in our initial line up).

Thanks for any help on this, we decided we would like to do the build out so we better understand the system when/if things go wrong and we can try to fix it. The piping size on this part of the project has been the hardest thing to wrap my poor crack addled mind around.

Starcat
11-16-2014, 05:16 AM
I have a quandary and I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer. I have literally read every thread in the refrigeration section trying to answer these questions (I posted this in another thread also)

We are planning on 6 - 7 barrel plastic fermenters with 50' of 1/2" or 3/4" SS coil in each and one jacketed brite (to start with). Our plan was to have an
1 1/2" PEX or sched 80 pvc header with a first in/last out return circuit. The drops would be 3/4" (?) tubing to quick disconnects and the coil through the lid for removal and cleaning. We are trying to work backwards on this to build the right system and then size the chiller to it and leave room for expansion (though expansion in this building will be limited so this will not be a permanent install). With that in mind I had a few questions:

1. Where can I find information on flow rates and for the SS coil mentioned above?

2. When the temp controller senses the need for cooling and opens the valve to allow the glycol to flow does the pump sense the change in pressure and pump harder to make up for the new open circuit(s) or is there enough flow resistance to maintain pressure in the system when fermenters are being cooled?

3. In the spirit of the 1st question, should the return circuit be sized smaller to increase flow resistance in order to maintain a pressure gradient on the feed side of the system? ie. 1 1/2" header - 3/4" drops - 1" return circuit?

4. We are looking at temp controllers hooked to solenoid or ball valves to control each fermenter individually (we are planning on a lager in our initial line up).

Thanks for any help on this, we decided we would like to do the build out so we better understand the system when/if things go wrong and we can try to fix it. The piping size on this part of the project has been the hardest thing to wrap my poor crack addled mind around.

Bill, if you ask Pro Refrigeration for a quote, they will help you size you chiller capacity. They have an online form that is filled out in the process. This link is one example of some flow rates of similar pipe or tubing. SS will be pretty much the same as copper:
http://s3.supplyhouse.com/manuals/1322593642270/68976_PROD_FILE.pdf

ASHRAE, TRANE and other sources have Tech Engineering info available.

Modern Brewery chiller systems typically run with a bypass regulator on the supply pump that relieves at a set pressure.
If you need to limit the flow through any circuit you do so by using a throttling valve on the outlet side of the jacket.
Your header piping needs to be sized relative to your chiller and pump system, not the other way round.

Motorized ball valves are overkill and really just an overly complicated moving part waiting to fail. I see zero need for them in Brewery applications when many other types of SERVOs will work for many years without any issues whatsoever if installed correctly.

You can run sch 80, but 40 is also adequate. Being old school I prefer copper, but the pressure rated ABS is attractive compared to PVC.
I never cared for PVC glue and primer.

jimvgjr
11-16-2014, 09:00 AM
We can definitely provide assistance regarding the chiller sizing and the header sizing for your brewery.

Please complete our online brewery survey form, and we will estimate the cooling load and provide to you some suggestions on a system to service your current and any future loads. http://www.prochiller.com/brewload.html

Not too sure how to suggest flow or diameter on the internal cooling coils, we will typically advise customers to secure this information from their vessel manufacturer. We have some rule of thumbs on jacket flow with traditional SS external cooling jackets; for a 7 Bbl vessel, the rule of thumb we would use for a flow estimate (if not available from tank mfg), is 5 GPM per cooling jacket. Many 7 Bbl FV will be supplied with 2 or 3 tank jackets.

We are a distributor for the Georg Fischer CoolFit Product line and just posted a short video to hepl people determine their header sizing and also the amount of material required to formulate a proposal. Even if you don't plan to use CF Piping (available in CF+ which is preinsulated, CFLite which comes with standard pipe insulation, and Naked CF which requires field insulation), the video will likely be helpful.. You can view the video library located on our Technical Site at www.mychiller.com. select Tech Tip Video link and you will find the link at the bottom of the page. Feel free to contact our sales team and they can walk you through this process and also provide a detailed guide for this. 800.845.7781 or sales@prorefrigeration.com

Best of luck with your start up, hope the above is helpful.

Best Regards,

Jim VanderGiessen Jr
Pro Chiller Systems

bwalden234
11-17-2014, 02:18 AM
Thank you both for your responses. I filled out the pro-chiller survey so hopefully this will help clear up my questions.