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  • Cicerone. Worth it ?

    For a new brewery is it worth it to have anyone complete the cicerone courses? Is their a more useful alternative? Is it all for show or do you learn allot from completing the first two levels? How do you folks feel about it?

  • #2
    Do you know a fittingly vast amount about beer as befits a brewer or brewery owner? Then the class is not needed.

    Do you, or maybe one or more of your partners, know nothing about beer beyond "it's wet and it comes in different kinds and I like it"? Then it's a good class for those people. Sometimes breweries have principals who are The Numbers Guy or The Restaurant Guy. It's good for everyone in charge to know a decent amount about beer. We had our Business Manager and Taproom Manager both take the intro levels for that reason.
    Russell Everett
    Co-Founder / Head Brewer
    Bainbridge Island Brewing
    Bainbridge Island, WA

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Bainbridge View Post
      Do you, or maybe one or more of your partners, know nothing about beer beyond "it's wet and it comes in different kinds and I like it"? Then it's a good class for those people. Sometimes breweries have principals who are The Numbers Guy or The Restaurant Guy. It's good for everyone in charge to know a decent amount about beer. We had our Business Manager and Taproom Manager both take the intro levels for that reason.
      My initial reaction was Tap Room staff. Thoughts on that with the assumption that the principals and brewhouse staff have something of a clue about beer?

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      • #4
        tap room staff
        I believe that the more information your tasting room staff knows about beer(not just your beer) the better. The way I look at it is the tasting room bartenders are the 1st line of communication to a potential new customer. The more fluent in beer knowledge the better the customers reception will be.

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        • #5
          Cicerone Here...

          I was a bartender in a small craft beer bar, then a manager at a corporate beer bar chain, and now a Tasting Room Manager at a great little brewery in Colorado, and the Certified Cicerone title got me some the credibility I needed to further my career. I believe that any additional education you add to your overall knowledge about the product you deal with is well worth it. Trust me...not everyone in the biz knows how to properly pour a beer or how to properly describe a beer to a customer, which is a education thing. I also think a lot of people don't see flaws(off-flavors) in their beers...but in reality, they don't know what to look for.

          From my Tasting Room Manager position, it helps plan events (beer dinner pairings, off-flavor events, etc.) and market them. It gets customers involved in beer conversation, from history to style guidelines to flavor profiles, which most of them are there for. And it is a decent QC(depending on the Cicerone's tasting ability), if you don't have the ability to use a lab.

          It also helps to have your servers do a Certified Beer Server qualification, as they will have a better understanding of beer from the start and are generally wanting to commit to the industry compared to a typical college job or whatever. It is usually a highlight on a resume for my tasting room.

          I am constantly reading about recipe formulation, brewing, styles, etc to further my education on my passion. I am now moving on to the BJCP to learn some more and keep my palate on point. So for me, it's always worth it.
          Paul M.
          Head Brewer
          Launch Pad Brewery
          Aurora, CO

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          • #6
            From what I've heard anyone brewery related would probably benefit more from becoming BJCP certified. Taproom staff could definitely benefit from cicerone. Craft beer bars and distributors seem to be cicerones bread and butter but I always push people for BJCP.

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            • #7
              First level of Cicerone is a joke. Certified Cicerone is pretty comprehensive. Beer history, beer style parameters, draft operations/maintenance, food/beer pairing, and off flavors.

              I think the Certified Cicerone tasting exam is better/extensive than BJCP. I've met a couple of individuals that love telling anyone and everyone that they are a BJCP judge. These same BJCP judges don't know their off flavors which is pretty unsettling.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by d_striker View Post
                First level of Cicerone is a joke.
                I keep seeing people say this. Would somebody care to elaborate? I was thinking it was pretty much an intro type course that at least talked about beer styles, serving, storage, etc while not covering things like off flavors. My general thought was that for tasting room staff this would make a great Minimum Required Certification after some trial period of time on the job. If i'm off base, I would love to know and understand why.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by kcolby View Post
                  I keep seeing people say this. Would somebody care to elaborate? I was thinking it was pretty much an intro type course that at least talked about beer styles, serving, storage, etc while not covering things like off flavors. My general thought was that for tasting room staff this would make a great Minimum Required Certification after some trial period of time on the job. If i'm off base, I would love to know and understand why.
                  Most people with some minimal beer knowledge can pass the first level test with ease. It took me all of 18 minutes while in the middle of doing other things around the brewery. This is why it's referred to as being a joke, it's basically a freebie. I wouldn't make it a requirement only for the fact that you should be able to assess whether they have that level of knowledge during the interview process. The information that's covered on the test is pretty basic.

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                  • #10
                    If brewing and beer is your industry, why would you not want to be a certified cicerone? All knowledge is good. The Cicerone exam was well worth it for me. It forced me to learn historical references, styles that aren't preferable to me, off flavors, etc. It's a hard exam. But it's worth it when you pass. Last I heard only 6K Certified Cicerones?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by d_striker View Post
                      First level of Cicerone is a joke. Certified Cicerone is pretty comprehensive. Beer history, beer style parameters, draft operations/maintenance, food/beer pairing, and off flavors.

                      I think the Certified Cicerone tasting exam is better/extensive than BJCP. I've met a couple of individuals that love telling anyone and everyone that they are a BJCP judge. These same BJCP judges don't know their off flavors which is pretty unsettling.
                      Not surprising. The BJCP is great for its original purpose: judging homebrew competitions.
                      As far as it being the last word on beer, I say nonsense, and even moreso insofar as the current trend of using the guidelines to judge commercial brews.
                      It's a good starting point, but certainly not an ironclad authoritative set of rules.

                      The idea of Cicerone is good, even if it is a bit pretentious. The biggest problem with the program is that it bases so much on the aforementioned BJCP guidelines.
                      Cicerone is fine, so long as the guidelines (which are flawed on many levels to begin with) are used only as a starting point and not treated as 'gospel'.
                      Only my opinions, of course, though I have heard plenty of others express the same sentiments.

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                      • #12
                        My Thoughts Exactly

                        I agree with this exactly. I'm taking in March and studying now. The beer industry needs a standard certification system that serves two purposes. 1) Acts as a credential making it easy for all beer industry stakeholders to quickly assess someone's knowledge and commitment to the industry..... even the beer server certification shows a little beer knowledge/experience 2) Acts as an educational pathway for all the knowledge gained through years of study and research by writers, brewers, BA, etc. to beer servers and customer touch points thereby growing the great beer experience.

                        With all of the above said. BEER DOES NOT HAVE TO FIT IN A BJCP STYLE. Just ask a Belgian brewer. But it is good to be able to say "this is somewhere between a Belgian and American Pale Ale"

                        Originally posted by Bull_MAC View Post
                        If brewing and beer is your industry, why would you not want to be a certified cicerone? All knowledge is good. The Cicerone exam was well worth it for me. It forced me to learn historical references, styles that aren't preferable to me, off flavors, etc. It's a hard exam. But it's worth it when you pass. Last I heard only 6K Certified Cicerones?

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                        • #13
                          Joke

                          It was only a joke because you work in a brewery. Imagine if you work at an Applebees... as long as you didn't cheat you would have to study at least a few hours to get through it. I've seen non-industry people try repeatedly to pass and it helped their beer serving immensely.


                          Originally posted by soia1138 View Post
                          Most people with some minimal beer knowledge can pass the first level test with ease. It took me all of 18 minutes while in the middle of doing other things around the brewery. This is why it's referred to as being a joke, it's basically a freebie. I wouldn't make it a requirement only for the fact that you should be able to assess whether they have that level of knowledge during the interview process. The information that's covered on the test is pretty basic.

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                          • #14
                            Certified Cicerone/BJCP Judge

                            Personally, I am both a Certified Cicerone and BJCP judge. I worked in the distribution and sales side and also on the supply side of the business previous to operating my own brewery. All these tools were essential in creating a well rounded background of knowledge and experience. I would do it all the same going back. In my opinion both are extremely beneficial in their own ways. BJCP covering more of the technical style identification and the judging of beer and the Cicerone covering more of the service applicable side of the business.

                            All of our staff at the very least will be certified beer servers. This is essential to operating a brewpub that puts education and beer knowledge at the forefront of its core principles. While the answers may seem simple for some, you'd be surprised at the great number of people that think they know a whole lot about beer yet can't even clean a beer glass the way it should be, let alone pass the BJCP or Cicerone exams.

                            All said, I would encourage the leaders of your organizations to consider taking both the BJCP and Certified Cicerone exams and tailoring your staff education specifically to what you learned on the tests and how it applies to your brewery.

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