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Tasting Room #'s - ZERO DISTRIBUTION / Poll

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  • Tasting Room #'s - ZERO DISTRIBUTION / Poll

    Hi everyone!

    I've been putting together numbers for a concept brewery that would have ZERO distribution. We would only sell direct to the customer out of our taproom (pints, growlers, limited bombers, merchandise). After a few years, we may expand to very local distribution - but I want this model to pay for itself before we do so. Obviously this puts all of the pressure on the tasting room so it comes down to getting people into the brewery.

    Let's assume my cost per pint is $.38, the tasting room is 1800 sq ft., and I'm on a 10 bbl system (or possibly a 10 HL MEBS), in a very densely populated area (450,000 people) with no other production breweries in town. I have a few questions for all you pros out there, just hoping to get more accurate numbers from real world scenarios:

    1. Can this work?
    2. How many beers/people do you serve per night out of your tap room?
    3. How many barrels did you brew your first year? Where did you sell that beer?
    4. How often do you brew and how many people/man hours does it take to do a batch?
    5. How many people were involved in the day-to-day operations of the brewery your first year?
    6. How many growlers and bombers do you sell every day from the tap room?

    At the end of the day, I need to be realistic about how many people will enter the tasting room and how much they will buy.

    Thank you all for your help. You've already helped me in plenty of ways on this forum!

    Vern

  • #2
    Here are my answers:

    1) Sure. Maybe. It depends.
    2) It varies depending on the season, if there's a game on, if I have a band playing or some other special event. As low as 1 pint per day (a snowstorm) and as high as 1000 (our anniversary party), but generally in the 500 - 1000 pints in a weekend.
    3) We brewed between 15 and 20 bbls per month our 1st year. All beer sold in the TR, with the exception of maybe 2 bbls out to special events.
    4) This also varies since our equipment is always improving. We quad batch a 1.5bbl brew house into 7bbl fermenters now and thats 1 long day, say 16 hours, then 1 short day. In all I'd guess it's about 60 man hours per week just brewing and doing some of the cellar work.
    5) 4, all unpaid.
    6) I'd say around 4 or 5 on average.

    Some caveats...we started as a nano. We're still on our 1.5bbl brew house, waiting on our 7bbl to be delivered some day. As a nano we try to maximize the amount of beer we sell out of the tasting room. Parties, bands, special events, food trucks, a large beer garden all help bring customers in. Our actual in-door seating area holds around 12 people. We are 5 miles from downtown Seattle in a very dense neighborhood. Our situation is also unique in that there are about 10 breweries in a 1 mile radius from ours. People walk from brewery to brewery and try to find their favorite, so beer tasting is more of a tourist attraction or "thing to do on a Sunday" around here.

    Moving 10bbls of beer in an 1800 sqft space seems a little tight. How many people can you fit in there? Why wouldn't you self distribute (or is that not an option) the remaining beer?

    If you're really looking to poll people I guess my vote is for "doable".

    Comment


    • #3
      A few quick observations:

      *I assume your cost per pint is a simple COGS assumption that factors only malt and hops? You cannot produce beer for $0.38 pint, so not really a valid number to determine margin potential.

      *I doubt you can produce and sell fresh beer in 1800SF (all retail) with a 10BBL system. Yes, you can cram that brewery into a small space but you need a bunch of seating to turn over that batch size. If you are only making one style, then maybe so. Of course it all depends on many factors, one answer does not fit all. If it walks out the door in hundreds of growlers per week, maybe so but then that would probably only be your flagship beer at that velocity.

      *1800SF leaves no room for retail or production capacity expansion (and sounds too small anyway). Dry good storage also eats up space, keep that in mind. Plan for success, not failure. Growing breweries eat money, square footage, and people.

      -Beaux

      Comment


      • #4
        The tasting room is 1800 sq ft? How big is the total space?

        Brian

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by briangaylor View Post
          The tasting room is 1800 sq ft? How big is the total space?

          Brian
          Yes just the tasting room is 1800 sq ft. The brewery would be 6000 sq ft. I'm thinking of having no "flagship" beer and rather brewing a larger variety of beers at all times as I feel that the locals would come in more often if the list is changing more frequently. (Eventually, I'm sure we would have more popular beers that would stick.) So the idea is to have 8-10 10 bbl fermenters in order to have ten or more beers on tap at all times. That's why I'm looking at the IDD HEBS - it would allow me to brew 3 times a day (save big on man hours).

          Thanks guys.
          v

          Comment


          • #6
            We squeak by supplying our 1500 sq foot taproom with a 1.5 bbl system. With a 10 bbl system you might as well distribute locally as well as the taproom because you arent going to need all that beer if you are brewing into 4-6 fermenters, and brewing 2-3 times a week.

            Comment


            • #7
              Our retail sales on a 10bbl approximately that same size and setup are about 1.0 to 1.3 bbls a day. Even at say 2 bbls a day (that's 500 pints a day avg, or nearly one a minute, each minute, for 9 hours a day, though obviously growlers will shift that depending on you local laws and sales mix.) you're looking at 60bbls a month. Which would (discounting loss, etc.) be six brews a month. Or two brewdays on that expensive HEBS. You could get by on three fermenters if you had to. Of course, if you wanted to offer, say nine beers, any one of those beers would be an average of a month and a half old at the end of its run. But because some beers will sell four times faster than others, some will eventually be much, much older. You'd be looking at about 720 barrels annually in that scenario. That's a lot of retail, even for a hopping brewpub with a full kitchen. You're more likely to hit maybe 400-500 bbls annually. But if you put in say 90bbls of capacity to start you could run 2000 barrels through that equipment. So either scale down the brewhouse to save money, or find a plan for that extra capacity, because there's no reason to get that big a system just for that. At the previous brewery I worked in, with no wholesale we kept up to nine beers on tap at a busy brewpub next to a university on a 5bbl system with four fermenters. But you certainly don't need 6000 sq ft for that.
              Russell Everett
              Co-Founder / Head Brewer
              Bainbridge Island Brewing
              Bainbridge Island, WA

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by beauxman View Post
                A few quick observations:

                *I assume your cost per pint is a simple COGS assumption that factors only malt and hops? You cannot produce beer for $0.38 pint, so not really a valid number to determine margin potential.

                *I doubt you can produce and sell fresh beer in 1800SF (all retail) with a 10BBL system. Yes, you can cram that brewery into a small space but you need a bunch of seating to turn over that batch size. If you are only making one style, then maybe so. Of course it all depends on many factors, one answer does not fit all. If it walks out the door in hundreds of growlers per week, maybe so but then that would probably only be your flagship beer at that velocity.

                *1800SF leaves no room for retail or production capacity expansion (and sounds too small anyway). Dry good storage also eats up space, keep that in mind. Plan for success, not failure. Growing breweries eat money, square footage, and people.

                -Beaux
                My cost per pint is a COGS with electrical, water/sewer, hops, yeast, grain, co2, brewer, asst brewer, cleaning supplies, and taxes. The HEBS is what makes it so low BUT the downside is the initial investment is much higher.

                It would JUST be the tasting room at 1800 sq ft. The city will allow me to be in up to 6000 sq ft total space with up to 30% designated as a tasting room. That's where those numbers are coming from. I'm not opposed to being in a smaller space, but figured I'd start at the max and then downscale to where it makes sense. It's just with a HEBS system I could fill that space out real quick, so I'm trying to future proof while still being self-sufficient for the first 2-3 years.

                I currently have our break even point at 25 bbl / month (that's full retail out of our taproom).

                v
                Last edited by Vernair; 12-02-2014, 03:13 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  A lot will also depend on your location. Is there a lot of street traffic? Are there a lot of craft beer enthusiast in your area? Is your area a tourist destination? What country are you in? It will also really depend on how good the beer is?

                  I would really like to see a spread sheet on how the HEBS is going to save you that much money per! I have worked the numbers and don't find that achievable unless your in a place with really low labour, water, gas and elecrtric costs. At the last CBC several HEBS users suggested that they are not saving that much time do other processes involved. Are you in an area where water is scarce. If I was looking a IDD I would certainly look at the CRaft Meura system from the company that really invented the process. In Belgium where there are a lot of small Meura systems a lot of the brewers blend wort form a secondary BH as well as add additional water to adjust the final wort before fermentation. This all takes time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TiminOz View Post
                    A lot will also depend on your location. Is there a lot of street traffic? Are there a lot of craft beer enthusiast in your area? Is your area a tourist destination? What country are you in? It will also really depend on how good the beer is?

                    I would really like to see a spread sheet on how the HEBS is going to save you that much money per! I have worked the numbers and don't find that achievable unless your in a place with really low labour, water, gas and elecrtric costs. At the last CBC several HEBS users suggested that they are not saving that much time do other processes involved. Are you in an area where water is scarce. If I was looking a IDD I would certainly look at the CRaft Meura system from the company that really invented the process. In Belgium where there are a lot of small Meura systems a lot of the brewers blend wort form a secondary BH as well as add additional water to adjust the final wort before fermentation. This all takes time.
                    We're still looking for a specific location but around here people drive everywhere so getting decent parking is the biggest thing. We do have some huge events come through town as well as quite a few tourists, but i'd be catering to the massive amounts of people that are already here without a lot of beer options. The couple craft-minded liquor stores in town definitely are a'buzz, so there is definite interest.

                    The HEBS numbers they sent me actually had their cost per pint at $.24. I've spoken to Coachella Valley about theirs in some detail, and they are VERY happy with it - especially out in the desert where water is so expensive. I'll look into the Craft Meura set up. What would you say are the biggest advantages of it over the HEBS???

                    Thanks all - great stuff!
                    v

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Vernair View Post
                      We're still looking for a specific location but around here people drive everywhere so getting decent parking is the biggest thing. We do have some huge events come through town as well as quite a few tourists, but i'd be catering to the massive amounts of people that are already here without a lot of beer options. The couple craft-minded liquor stores in town definitely are a'buzz, so there is definite interest.

                      The HEBS numbers they sent me actually had their cost per pint at $.24. I've spoken to Coachella Valley about theirs in some detail, and they are VERY happy with it - especially out in the desert where water is so expensive. I'll look into the Craft Meura set up. What would you say are the biggest advantages of it over the HEBS???

                      Thanks all - great stuff!
                      v

                      Any further thoughts on the HEBS and Craft Meura systems? I've been led to believe that a brewery that has a HEBS is suing the manufacturer and not happy with the system. I was in the process of checking into breweries that are using the system when I ran across this and am now a bit wary of it...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by travissj View Post
                        Any further thoughts on the HEBS and Craft Meura systems? I've been led to believe that a brewery that has a HEBS is suing the manufacturer and not happy with the system. I was in the process of checking into breweries that are using the system when I ran across this and am now a bit wary of it...
                        I know that Meura has been building their mash filtration system for over 20 years and have a long track record of a proven product.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TiminOz View Post
                          I know that Meura has been building their mash filtration system for over 20 years and have a long track record of a proven product.
                          Good to know, thanks...love everything the sales info has to sell/promote about HEBS but as far as I know only 5 breweries are using it and they are all relatively new in using the equipment.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vernair View Post
                            My cost per pint is a COGS with electrical, water/sewer, hops, yeast, grain, co2, brewer, asst brewer, cleaning supplies, and taxes. The HEBS is what makes it so low BUT the downside is the initial investment is much higher.
                            Actually, COGS includes manufacturing overhead which includes depreciation, so if you calculated it properly you'd be able to compare apples to apples and determine which system will actually be cheaper to operate.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              BUMP this question

                              Hi All, I would like to bump this topic again and see if anyone else can share their tasting room numbers.

                              To simplify the initial question:

                              1) how many seats in your tasting room and
                              2) approx. how many BBLs/year or week are you selling onsite?


                              I know that every tasting room is different size and locations, etc.., but if enough folks answer, we can start seeing some averages appear.

                              Thoughts?

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