Help with an unusual all-in-one brewhouse with double boiler

[Culum]

We have recently bought used brewing equipment that was built by the German brewing equipment manufacturer BTB Brauereitchnik Bochum GmbH (now BTB Brau-Technologie GmbH) in 1998. The brewhouse is a GHB 5 model (first picture).

It’s a 5 hectolitre all-in-one electric brewhouse with a brew kettle in the middle surrounded by a mash/lauter tun in a doughnut shape around the top (second picture). The most curious aspect of the brewhouse is what appears to be a double boiler time heating method for boiling that mash. There are 5 electric heating elements that go into a closed hot water reservoir on the outside of the bottom of the brew kettle. We thought it might be a HLT but there doesn’t appear to be any means of transferring the water from this compartment to the mash/lauter tun. The reservoir has a blow-off valve that is rated to trip at 2.5 bar (~40 psi).

I have contacted BTB-Brau to obtain the electric schematic and process and instrumentation diagram but was told that the company that bought out BTB-Brau did not keep information on the equipment that the previous iteration of the company manufactured.

We are trying to figure out how the brewhouse works and could use any information about this system. Most importantly, have any of you heard of superheating a reservoir of water with electric elements to boil wort?

[TiminOz]

It is kind of cool really! I will keep an eye out if you get it figured out. Just keep searching the web, someone we love will have some information.

[Culum]

Thanks for keeping you eye out TiminOz. I've been scouring the web for anything like this but to no avail. We had long time brewery equipment who have never seen anything like it before. I'm sure there is someone on this esteemed forum that has can give us a clue as to how this is supposed to function.

[Starcat]

Assembly

The photograph seems to show a control panel in the background.
If you have all the pieces, it should be somewhat straight forward to determine how it was meant to work and wire it up.
There should be some kind of nameplates that specify Voltage and Phase somewhere. If you can open all service panels and show as much of the electrical system and wire termination points as possible I may be able to comment further.
I would expect that hot chamber described would utilize some kind of a small pump in the process.
All intended safety limits have to be considered in this type of project with respect to how it built out.

[beermkr]

I have not seen one of these in years. Honestly I can not help really but the only other one I have seen was at a place calle Pivnica Nautilus in Split Croatia. I am not sure if they are still around but if they are the brewer at the time was super friendly and open with answers when I was asking questions about his process.

[Culum]

Thanks Starcat,

We have our crackerjack electrician working on the control panel. There is one main 2HP pump that drives the entire brewhouse. He's figured out where and how everything works but we are all perplexed by this hot water reservoir. We thought it was an HLT but there doesn't seem to be a straight forward way of transfer the hot liquor to MLT. That's why we think its a "double boiler" type set-up where the water stays in the reservoir and acts as a means of boiling the wort in the BK above it. While it would seem that putting the electric heating probes into the BK would be more efficient we're thinking that the "double boiler" method would making cleaning a lot easier and that is why BTB built it that way. I supposed we are looking for some confirmation that this "double boiler" method of heating the BK is an actual thing.

Here are some pictures of the control unit. It runs on the European 400 volt and we're planning on purchasing a transformer to bring it to 208.

[Culum]

Thanks beermkr,

I am guessing you are looking at the same unit you saw at Pivnica Nautilus. This came from Split where it sat in the Dalmatian sunshine for a couple of years. This adds another piece to the puzzle to this brewery. It seems to have most recently been in service at Mini Pivovara MK in Split brewing pilsners for tourists during the summer. Both Pivnica Nautilus and MK are out of business so we are left to figure it out for ourselves (with kind help of the probrewer community of course) how this Rube Goldberg brewhouse works.

You wouldn’t, by chance, happen to have any contacts that might be able to put us in touch with this affable Croatian brewer?

Culum

[beermkr]

Unfortunately it was a LONG time ago when I was still in the Navy. At least 15 years, maybe a little more. That brewery was the first place I had ever seen lagers brewed at 85 degrees under 2.5 bar of pressure. They were pumping out lagers in 4 days.

Their serving tanks were pretty cool too and used air filled bladders to push the beers.

[Culum]

beermkr,

Awesome! That helps like you wouldn't believe. We have those serving tanks and FV w/ spunding valves. I suspected that the serving tanks used bags (Duo-tank I believe) but this confirms it. Also, I am surprised that they were fermenting at 85f since our system can with jacketed fermenters and a large cold liquor tank. I guess that was used for cold crashing. Can you tell me how their 4 day lager tasted?

Did the tanks look like this?



Thanks,
Culum

[beermkr]

Okay,

I have been engaging my wayback memory recall (not so great but functional). I think I remember them telling me that the kettle was heated by a water bath. Doing some research I believe you can heat that bath to 250 degrees without activating the relief valve (2 bar @ 250). I seem to think that he would heat strike water in the kettle and mash in. then heat more water for sparge that went to a holding tank of some sort. Having the water heating in the kettle allowed the mash to maintain temp well and the rotating rakes eased runoff for him.

[beermkr]

Yep. Thats what they looked like. The lagers were really good actually. Not filtered but clean tasting. I believe there is a specific yeast that works well under pressure. Search here and you may find the threads from a long time ago when I asked about pressure fermentations

[Culum]

Hey Mike,

That is exactly what we were looking for. That's a great starting point and confirms some of our spitballing about how this system could work. If you think of anything else please let me know. Also, I'll look into lager yeast that works well under pressure for sure. I know that Fermentis 34/70 works well at higher temps and its what we use for most of our lagers. I wonder if it works well under pressure?

Thanks,
Culum

[wailingguitar]

I have used Ferments S23 in tanks with spundigs and had great results, even active ferment down into the high 30s. I would pitch yeast at, say 60F, with tanks set to 57 or 58, apply spundig about 24 hours after pitch when yeast was kicking, and then drop temp a few degrees per day. I usually stopped around 45F, but on a Bo Pils I kept going until I had, iirc, 38F set point. The beer took about 3 weeks to ferment out completely, but it was nice and very clean

[Culum]

Thanks wailingguitar,

I will give S23 a try in our pilot and see how it does. We're in a very Germanic area on Ontario and want to serve lagers so a 3 week turn around would be great. How was your carbonation? Did you have to supplement with forced CO2 or was the spunding enough?

Culum

[Dsm160]

That looks like a Biering I worked on at one point. We had electric elements/distilled water heating our brew/mash kettle. had lots of issues with the electronics. Paul Lomello in NJ specializes in this stuiff...