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HitB Brewery
02-12-2015, 08:53 AM
Hello! Our helpful county (Onondaga County in NYS) plumbing inspector indicates that a grease trap is necessary for our floor drains because yeast is food.

We have an official meeting to plead out case against needing a 250 gallon grease trap attached to our existing floor drains.

I have prepared simple statements about yeast flocculation, reuse and our intended method of yeast disposal (with solid waste), but am hoping there is any empirical, or heck, even anecdotal, evidence anyone could provide for our benefit.

Has anyone else had to have this fight?

Thanks a ton.

GlacierBrewing
02-12-2015, 10:22 AM
The only breweries with grease traps that I am aware of have a kitchen attached to their operation. Perhaps there are others but I have not run into them.
I would ask the inspector for precedence on yeast disposal specifically requiring a grease trap. I suspect he is using the "better safe than sorry" method.

Prost!
Dave

RobW
02-12-2015, 10:29 AM
You might also try this with him - If the water/discharge is moving in any way, any yeast that remains in the waste stream will be suspended in the liquid carrying it, it will NOT settle out in a grease trap with movement. It won't float or drop out like grease/food chunks. Remind him that yeast cells are 510 μm in diameter.

Good luck
R

HitB Brewery
02-12-2015, 11:19 AM
Good information. Thanks guys!

The inspector, who was really just there to inspect new bathroom plumbing, only had our contracted plumber to ask questions of, so I imagine understanding what exactly will be going on will clear up a lot of issues, but I always feel the need to over prepare, just in case.

We are strictly a manufacturing brewery with an "assembly space tasting room" that looks an awful lot like a bar, so I can understand assumptions being made.

HitB Brewery
02-13-2015, 09:57 AM
Inspector indicates a 99% necessity for a 1000 gallon grease trap with a manhole outside my facility. Again, there will be no food at all, so this is a 1000 gallon trap for my 2bbl brewery, haha.

I expressed this, but apparently it didn't matter.

I'm wondering if anyone has had this fight or even had to install one of these behemoths?

Thanks.

kugeman
02-13-2015, 11:35 AM
Is this inspector from Ag & Markets? Or is it the Health Inspector. If you don't serve food in NY state, you should be getting inspected by Ag & Markets. They are usually pretty good since they understand commercial production facilities (like farms & dairies).

HitB Brewery
02-13-2015, 02:05 PM
Is this inspector from Ag & Markets? Or is it the Health Inspector. If you don't serve food in NY state, you should be getting inspected by Ag & Markets. They are usually pretty good since they understand commercial production facilities (like farms & dairies).

We are adding a bathroom and putting in a three bay sink in the tasting room for washing glasses. Somehow the County plumbing inspector parlayed this into needing a huge grease trap, even though we've indicated there is no food.

The second-in-command reported to the inspector there that all businesses require grease traps now (that seems false) as only 100% water can go down the drain and that if we didn't like that we could "take our brewery to another county."

So relations opened frosty, but in the end i'd just like to not have to more than i have to; we're a brewery, resources are already stretched thin.

Thanks!

scmorgan
02-14-2015, 01:42 AM
Cannot run brewery waste thru a food system, remember fat and caustic make soap.

The inspector does realise that yeast is a mould ... show me a pipe that does not have some variety of mould in it ...

ChesterBrew
02-14-2015, 05:45 AM
We are adding a bathroom and putting in a three bay sink in the tasting room for washing glasses. Somehow the County plumbing inspector parlayed this into needing a huge grease trap, even though we've indicated there is no food.

The second-in-command reported to the inspector there that all businesses require grease traps now (that seems false) as only 100% water can go down the drain and that if we didn't like that we could "take our brewery to another county."

So relations opened frosty, but in the end i'd just like to not have to more than i have to; we're a brewery, resources are already stretched thin.

Depending how big of an issue you want to make of it, you may with to let your country commissioners, the folks who handle economic development for the county, as well as the country administrators be aware of the situation. Inspectors, in my personal experience in the construction industry for 20+ years, will sometimes view themselves as gods and try to bluff their way through things they don't understand.

My 3bbl brewery is hooked into our municipal water and sewer, and we've come to the agreement of us playing "wait and see" to see if it's even a problem that exists (there's no other similar business in my County.) I've given them my word I'll install a holding tank if there was a problem that arose, but was adamant that I would pull the plug on the project if they made me try to solve a problem that, frankly, won't exist.

Starcat
02-14-2015, 07:33 AM
Agreed, yeast is not going to be effectively removed or trapped by a grease trap. The specific gravity of yeast is too close to water and will be carried through with the water flow. Dissolved air floatation can be used to remove yeast from the flow, but that is a big mess.

Yeast does not agglomerate on pipe walls and in manholes like fats, oils, and grease does. You need to speak with someone else in the inspector's department to push the issue up the line. PS: not all inspectors are bright or knowledgible.

If you go looking around, you are going to find that more than a few breweries have a tank on the brewery effluent out line that catches solids. They do fill up and they do have to be pumped out and they are required in certain areas. IS the requirement nonsensical? I don't know currently.
Possibly someone might want to have some of that slurry analyzed to determine exactly what it is.

As Morgan has stated you don't mix any other effluent lines in with the Brewery.

S.Foster
02-15-2015, 06:03 AM
Sounds to me like this official is overstepping his codes. Ask for him to produce the code which mandates the use of a grease trap on effluents containing yeast and then ask him what is the acceptable parts per million (ppm) post trap flow. Remember, in order for us as brewers to remove yeast in suspension we must temperature crash our product so that this can happen effectively, otherwise the yeast will simply flow with the liquid.
Also, about the 1000 gallon grease trap- 1000 gallons refers to the flow through the grease trap not the standing volume within the grease trap. Depending on your local codes you may not have to "sink" the trap into the ground, flush to grade level. Again, depending on local code, you may quite possibly be allowed to set the trap inside, above grade at any location as long as it allows all production effluents through it. Again, this is all code related to your area.

HitB Brewery
02-16-2015, 09:15 AM
Thanks, everyone, for all the advice. I feel much more confident moving forward with this situation now. Hopefully we can get through it more amicably and without a trap.

To answer a couple questions that popped up, this was not an AG inspection, this was the county plumbing inspection that was there for an entirely different reason (new bathroom). I initally thought it would be 1000g throughput too, but they wanted the tank to be able to physically hold 1000g, which is just nuts. I think the problem is that the building is 5000sf so it seems like something big could go on there, not my comically small 2bbl system.

beerguy1
02-16-2015, 10:17 AM
Is this inspector from Ag & Markets? Or is it the Health Inspector. If you don't serve food in NY state, you should be getting inspected by Ag & Markets. They are usually pretty good since they understand commercial production facilities (like farms & dairies).

Exactly the same here in Michigan. Ag inspection was just done here and just like above they was more into the dairy side. I asked about a county health department inspection. He said since we are not making a food product they have no jurisdiction here. BTW awesome group to work with

HitB Brewery
02-16-2015, 10:47 AM
At the risk of sounding stupid, I had not heard of a required agriculture and markets inspection, nor has anyone I've ran my plan through indicated i'd need as such. Is this a necessity? I'm unsure what they'd be looking at and now am reticent to contact anyone if it's not absolutely necessary.

DUB Co
02-16-2015, 12:43 PM
At the risk of sounding stupid, I had not heard of a required agriculture and markets inspection, nor has anyone I've ran my plan through indicated i'd need as such. Is this a necessity? I'm unsure what they'd be looking at and now am reticent to contact anyone if it's not absolutely necessary.

Arig and Markets is if you filed a wholesale license. Essentially all breweries do. In NY state the license is "Artice 20-c" license. Look that up. Also if you are in NY and do a Farm Brewery license you are exempt for the 20c but still need an initial inspection from Arg and Markets. They want this done after state licensing but before you open.

HitB Brewery
02-16-2015, 01:50 PM
Arig and Markets is if you filed a wholesale license. Essentially all breweries do. In NY state the license is "Artice 20-c" license. Look that up. Also if you are in NY and do a Farm Brewery license you are exempt for the 20c but still need an initial inspection from Arg and Markets. They want this done after state licensing but before you open.

Awesome, thanks! If you've done this, is the turnaround long? We will not be a farm brewery.

S.Foster
02-18-2015, 08:51 PM
Here is an alternative to the grease trap or grease interceptor (1000 gallon grease trap tanks) you may be looking for, print out the certification and ask your inspector if this will be accepted by him: http://www.miracle-microbes.com/ goto GREASE RECOVERY SYSTEMS and take a look there. Good luck.

BeachBrew
02-19-2015, 05:12 AM
Call your county water dept and discuss the issue. I think you will find that they will help you with the question of disposing yeast down the drain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HitB Brewery
02-19-2015, 11:32 AM
Now everyone is scared and apparently we're about to break the entire city's plumbing system!

Ok, not quite but now we're being asked to provide a "discharge report," detailing exact what will go down the drain.

My initial thought was PBW, Star San, a little beer, water and yeast, but I wanted to gather the opinion of people who have submitted something of this ilk prior.

I am thinking they believe us to be putting far more down the drain than we really will be, and that it will be far more sinister than what it is.

Thanks again, everyone, for your help with this. Who knew drains could be so involved?

RocketRepublic
02-23-2015, 06:57 AM
We spec'd an in ground concrete 750 gal grease trap per our plumber and governing authority. They wouldn't approve the plan unless it was changed out with a 1000 gallon grease trap with two man-hole covers a truck could drive over, despite it being located in a place that will never receive vehicle traffic.

We're not the first brewery in our area and "everyone has one" so we had to have one, too. I'm not 100% convinced the governing authorities know why they should or should not require it other than everyone else is doing it. The way it was explained to me (by another brewer) is that it's not just yeast but particulate matter as well.

jebzter
02-23-2015, 10:13 AM
Where we're at, we had to submit plans to the sewer department, and they determined the need for things like this. Much smarter people there. All they wanted was a sample box for them to pull quarterly samples. The inspectors job was to verify we were building per the plans. I second going to the economic development office, they can pull strings to get things done quickly, usually the cities don't want to loose small businesses.

Jeff Luskey
02-23-2015, 10:35 AM
It is unbelievable the range of inconsistencies between governing bodies and what they require of breweries. We had to purchase a wastewater treatment plant to be used in the future in case the brewery grows, to satisfy our county before they would even think about signing off on our compliance certificate to brew 3 bbl batches. Lots of hoop jumping....

murmsk
02-23-2015, 12:07 PM
It shows an alarming lack of understanding of the basics of their job. The scarey thing is if they don't understand how yeast differs from fat what else don't they understand. Sadly most inspectors vision of them selves precludes having a discussion.

Thankfully ours were great, they asked questions and did some research before handing down their ruling.

steve

HitB Brewery
02-26-2015, 04:14 PM
We spec'd an in ground concrete 750 gal grease trap per our plumber and governing authority. They wouldn't approve the plan unless it was changed out with a 1000 gallon grease trap with two man-hole covers a truck could drive over, despite it being located in a place that will never receive vehicle traffic.

We're not the first brewery in our area and "everyone has one" so we had to have one, too. I'm not 100% convinced the governing authorities know why they should or should not require it other than everyone else is doing it. The way it was explained to me (by another brewer) is that it's not just yeast but particulate matter as well.

Where are you located, Rocket?

hmenik
03-23-2015, 11:54 AM
We are going through the same situation as we are also from Onondaga County. I had already spoken with Ag & Mkts and they stated, that I do not need a grease trap. Now the plumbing inspector has told my contractor that we need 3 grease traps when we are only brewing from a small system with no food preparation. Have you found a resolution to this issue yet? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

hokus
04-27-2015, 08:58 AM
We have the entity that is in charge of local building code inspections as a good customer (all their employees hang out in our pub). We recently added some new concrete flooring and drains. They were mentioning that it is apparently IBC that any new floor drain installation must have grease traps. Luckily they were smart enough to realize this is insane to make us install and sort of 'looked the other way' because we don't have a kitchen.

I have a feeling more and more small cash straped start ups will run into this situation. Hope your local inspectors are good to work with. Typically economic development folks are also good to have on your side.

Our sewer authority also asked for a report of what would be dumped into the drain. Our local authority actually likes that yeast/trub is going in the system, they claim it actually helps the treatment plant because it gives their little critters something to eat and allows them to not have to add. Cleaning chemicals in proper dilutions are usually no issue.