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  • Papain and pasteurization

    Hello everybody,


    Do you know what temps do i need to inactivate de papain enzymes and dont affect my foam?

    Im having murky haze in my american ipa, my beer is clear before dry hopping.


    Regards!
    Arturo.

  • #2
    I doubt if the haze is pure protein haze that can be removed by using papain. Although I have not seen any results of careful lab analysis, I think much if not most of it will be fine particulate matter (i.e. dust) on the surface of the hop material which has not settled out as it is so fine. I am used to fining beers when dry hopping, either adding finings at the same time as the hops (traditional British cask beer), or filtering after dry hopping. Both of these processes leave the beer bright, if done properly.

    There are a couple of questions. Are you now intending to pasteurise simply to deactivate the enzyme? Papain addition will not make any difference to the haze if it is particulate (dust from the hops) haze.

    At what point are you adding the dry hops? If you add them very late in the process, say bright beer tank, and are not inert gas purging the hops before addition, then you may be producing oxygen induced haze. Papain will help a little with this, but you are likely to get other problems, particularly flavour changes associated with oxygen pickup - particularly diacetyl and oxidation (cardboardy / papery flavours).

    As regards your original question - pasteurisation temperatures - you need to hit pasteurisation temperature and time for whichever process you are using, flash or tunnel. So a few seconds at 74 C (flash) or 10 to 20 minutes at circa 65 C (tunnel) - depending on the number of PUs. But these times / temperatures are for killing yeasts / bacteria, and not specifically for denaturing proteolytic enzymes. If you get the pasteurisation (micro kill) effect you want, you will also denature the enzyme.
    dick

    Comment


    • #3
      Just to add another potential problem with using papain, which is very non-specific as a proteolytic enzyme and is likely to cause head reduction due to its effect on foam-positive proteins.

      If your haze problems are occurring very soon after dry-hopping then, like dick murton, I would doubt this is proteinaceous or a protein-polyphenol complex; the latter, particularly, tend to form quite slowly. Their formation and stability are related to high DO2 levels, however.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dick murton View Post
        I doubt if the haze is pure protein haze that can be removed by using papain. Although I have not seen any results of careful lab analysis, I think much if not most of it will be fine particulate matter (i.e. dust) on the surface of the hop material which has not settled out as it is so fine. I am used to fining beers when dry hopping, either adding finings at the same time as the hops (traditional British cask beer), or filtering after dry hopping. Both of these processes leave the beer bright, if done properly.

        There are a couple of questions. Are you now intending to pasteurise simply to deactivate the enzyme? Papain addition will not make any difference to the haze if it is particulate (dust from the hops) haze.

        At what point are you adding the dry hops? If you add them very late in the process, say bright beer tank, and are not inert gas purging the hops before addition, then you may be producing oxygen induced haze. Papain will help a little with this, but you are likely to get other problems, particularly flavour changes associated with oxygen pickup - particularly diacetyl and oxidation (cardboardy / papery flavours).

        As regards your original question - pasteurisation temperatures - you need to hit pasteurisation temperature and time for whichever process you are using, flash or tunnel. So a few seconds at 74 C (flash) or 10 to 20 minutes at circa 65 C (tunnel) - depending on the number of PUs. But these times / temperatures are for killing yeasts / bacteria, and not specifically for denaturing proteolytic enzymes. If you get the pasteurisation (micro kill) effect you want, you will also denature the enzyme.
        Thank you Dick, i add them in primary in the FV, i leave them in contact for 3 maximum 5 days. Nowadays we pasteurize our beer with the method batch pasteurization, 60 C for 8 min and then cool down, we have 12 months of shelf life.

        I think we should try biofine, do you think i can use biofine at the same time of dry hopping?

        We filter 1 micron filters but they dont remove haze, 0.5 absolute filter removes it but also the beers body

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TL Services View Post
          Just to add another potential problem with using papain, which is very non-specific as a proteolytic enzyme and is likely to cause head reduction due to its effect on foam-positive proteins.

          If your haze problems are occurring very soon after dry-hopping then, like dick murton, I would doubt this is proteinaceous or a protein-polyphenol complex; the latter, particularly, tend to form quite slowly. Their formation and stability are related to high DO2 levels, however.
          Tl services thank you, i think we dont hace DO2 issues by reading your toughts so its must be the very fine hops particules, actually i dont want to affect the head retention, i will try biofine in primary FV before filtration

          Comment


          • #6
            Have to say that I have never used biofine, but I have not heard anything detrimental about it. However, I think I would prefer to dry hop without biofine, simply to minimise the risk of the hops being smothered by the biofine and settled materials, and then add / mix in biofine and allow to settle for the final 24 to 48 hours only.

            8 PUs - you must have pretty good microbiological quality to get 12 months out with that low level. Having said that, that is based purely on the hold time & temperature. You will undoubtedly gain a few more PUs during heat up and cooling down - but I doubt it will even be double, more likely another 4 PUs, but a total of 12 is still low by many / most brewers standards.
            dick

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes i think will be better to dry hop first, then biofine. Yes we havent had an issue with 8PUs, the enginner told us to do 8PUs, before we used to do 12-14PUs our beers go from 3.8 to 8.5% alcohol


              Originally posted by dick murton View Post
              Have to say that I have never used biofine, but I have not heard anything detrimental about it. However, I think I would prefer to dry hop without biofine, simply to minimise the risk of the hops being smothered by the biofine and settled materials, and then add / mix in biofine and allow to settle for the final 24 to 48 hours only.

              8 PUs - you must have pretty good microbiological quality to get 12 months out with that low level. Having said that, that is based purely on the hold time & temperature. You will undoubtedly gain a few more PUs during heat up and cooling down - but I doubt it will even be double, more likely another 4 PUs, but a total of 12 is still low by many / most brewers standards.

              Comment

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