Zero head on our first kegged batches, but beer not flat...

[BeerDude981]

Hi All,

Long time viewer, first time poster (i think!). I love this forum and it usually answers all my questions!

Here's our issue (bullet points):

-Our kegged beer is coming out with absolutely zero head on it, though the beer is nowhere flat, and actually carbonated nicely.
-however when poured from our sample valve directly from the brites, the expected head is there, including great head retention.
-kegs were cleaned, sanitized, purged and filled with about 12psi of CO2 before kegging
-bled off pressure while kegging (just using gravity and pressure brite to fill each keg)
-very little foam blow off as kegs reached capacity (so not losing a ton of foam/co2 during filling)
-beer lines at the draft account were cleaning right before tapping
-all other draft beers at the account poured as expected, only our 3 different beers were coming out with zero head.
-our filled kegs were in the accounts walk-in with all the other beers for 36 hours before tapping
-increased the psi on the draft lines to see if it had any effect, nothing.

We carbonated our beers in the brites using carb stones... at around 36 degrees, purged the brites of all oxygen before hand and as mentioned before, the carbonation levels of all 3 beers are "good" at least by taste/mouthfeel. We don't have a Zahm to measure the actual vols of CO2, but used the standard matrix charts everyone uses for determining what pressure to use based on the style and the temp of the beer, etc. I should mention that our brites were only about half full while we carbonated, one brewer I talked to thought that could be an issue (Too MUCH head space in the brite???)

I've discussed this with a few people and did some googling, most of the info I've found relates of course to the pressure on the draft lines, etc when dealing with poured head. Some suggested chilling the kegs before filling, but would that make THAT much of a difference since there is zero head to begin with?

I guess I'm hoping that we're missing some glaring thing somewhere in the process, and I have an ah-ha moment when I find out what it is. Looking forward to your help!!!!

Thanks!

[soia1138]

What volume of co2 did you aim for? Even though it might taste perfect to you if the volume is too low (even though appropriate for style), the beer will not pour with head unless the faucet is restricted for a moment to create some. Basically there is a minimum level otherwise most draft accounts will complain that the beer is flat, only because it pours with no head. Unfortunately most of the time you need to compromise with what you might feel is slightly over carbed for the style. That's just the way the american market is at the moment. Most bartenders do no know how to create a head by choking the tap, nor are they going to be told that something special must be done to serve this beer verses that beer. I ususally keep the volumes between 2.5 and 2.8, depending on the beer and never had a complaint.

With regards to pouring a from the sample port. Of course you will get head from there. You don't have the proper restriction to balance and keep the co2 in solution, so you will get a lot of head and pretty flat beer.

[BeerDude981]

What volume of co2 did you aim for? Even though it might taste perfect to you if the volume is too low (even though appropriate for style), the beer will not pour with head unless the faucet is restricted for a moment to create some. Basically there is a minimum level otherwise most draft accounts will complain that the beer is flat, only because it pours with no head. Unfortunately most of the time you need to compromise with what you might feel is slightly over carbed for the style. That's just the way the american market is at the moment. Most bartenders do no know how to create a head by choking the tap, nor are they going to be told that something special must be done to serve this beer verses that beer. I ususally keep the volumes between 2.5 and 2.8, depending on the beer and never had a complaint.

With regards to pouring a from the sample port. Of course you will get head from there. You don't have the proper restriction to balance and keep the co2 in solution, so you will get a lot of head and pretty flat beer.

I was aiming for 2.5 on one style and 2.7 on another. So you're saying you think I'm not reaching my levels and the beers are basically under-carbed as is?

[soia1138]

Based on the information that would be my first guess. I would borrow a zahm if you can or at least buy one of the cheaper versions. They work, if only for a little while. I used a cheaper version from Taprite to check my process for a while to ensure repeatable results. It's really the only way of knowing for sure what your volumes are. I had a similar situation with a porter. It tasted fantastic with the right carbonation and mouthfeel but poured with little to no head. it had to be bumped up to not have the complaints roll in ie; cask beer is flat mentality.

[Matt Dog]

Pour it hard as possible into a glass, any beer with reasonable carbonation should form a decent head. If you cant get a head from a hard pour and you are sure its not flat then you have an issue with your keg washing and something that is killing head retention.You already said it pours with a nice head off the tank and that the bars other beers pour fine so its something with your keg/washing/sanitizing. What chemicals do you use? Are you possibly getting oil from your air compressor into the kegs during cleaning?

[TGTimm]

Oil is an incredible head killer. For a simple experiment, take a glass of beer with a nice head, rub your finger on your forehead/nose a bit, then dip your finger into the glass. You should see the head retreating from where you dipped your finger almost instantly (unless you've had too many Botox treatments).

The tiniest trace of oil in your kegs--likely, as the poster above wrote, from your air compressor--will kill the head.

Another common culprit is automatic glass/dish washer soap--which is actually caustic lye--or rinse additive residue on the glasses. Try hand-washing a glass after it comes out of the glass washer and see if this makes a difference.

Oh, yeah--do use a pressure/temperature device to test your carb levels--the Bio-Zahm needs regular calibration.

Good luck--

[claponsie]

Hi All,

Long time viewer, first time poster (i think!). I love this forum and it usually answers all my questions!

Here's our issue (bullet points):

-Our kegged beer is coming out with absolutely zero head on it, though the beer is nowhere flat, and actually carbonated nicely.
-however when poured from our sample valve directly from the brites, the expected head is there, including great head retention.
-kegs were cleaned, sanitized, purged and filled with about 12psi of CO2 before kegging
-bled off pressure while kegging (just using gravity and pressure brite to fill each keg)
-very little foam blow off as kegs reached capacity (so not losing a ton of foam/co2 during filling)
-beer lines at the draft account were cleaning right before tapping
-all other draft beers at the account poured as expected, only our 3 different beers were coming out with zero head.
-our filled kegs were in the accounts walk-in with all the other beers for 36 hours before tapping
-increased the psi on the draft lines to see if it had any effect, nothing.

We carbonated our beers in the brites using carb stones... at around 36 degrees, purged the brites of all oxygen before hand and as mentioned before, the carbonation levels of all 3 beers are "good" at least by taste/mouthfeel. We don't have a Zahm to measure the actual vols of CO2, but used the standard matrix charts everyone uses for determining what pressure to use based on the style and the temp of the beer, etc. I should mention that our brites were only about half full while we carbonated, one brewer I talked to thought that could be an issue (Too MUCH head space in the brite???)

I've discussed this with a few people and did some googling, most of the info I've found relates of course to the pressure on the draft lines, etc when dealing with poured head. Some suggested chilling the kegs before filling, but would that make THAT much of a difference since there is zero head to begin with?

I guess I'm hoping that we're missing some glaring thing somewhere in the process, and I have an ah-ha moment when I find out what it is. Looking forward to your help!!!!

Thanks!

You will lose some volume of CO2 while filling a keg, so you should overshoot your target volume a little bit. The greater the temperature difference between the beer and the kegs and the faster you attempt to fill them, the greater the volume of CO2 loss. Chilling the kegs is helpful, but not necessary if you overcarb in the brite a little. What kind of sample valve do you have on your brite tank? Pouring out of the brite tank is not always a great indicator of what head retention is going to look like out of the keg, since the lines are typically longer going to the draft tower. My thoughts are that your beer was probably under-carbonated but looked great when pouring out of the brite tank due to insufficient length between the sample port and glass. Also, every beer is different. Your grain bill has a lot to do with head retention. One of our light-bodied ales, when fully carbonated, is a pain to get good head retention on. Our servers know to pour that beer aggressively in order to get our desired amount of head.

I've also had kegs lose pressure and go flat as well. How much time has passed since you filled the kegs and what condition are the kegs in?

[gitchegumee]

One more thing....

Check the BBT that you carbonated and filled from before you clean it! It is possible that you carbonated far too aggressively and foamed your beer in the tank. Likely if your stones aren't put together right and blow big bubbles as opposed to a fine mist. You would notice a very slight krausen above the beer level line in the BBT akin to lacing on a glass. If this is there, then you've foamed your beer. It won't have good head retention then. Or any at all. It's also possible if you vent your tank while carbonating, or if you don't maintain proper head pressure/counterpressure during transfer, or if you begin carbonation with an unpressurized tank. In short, unless you have carbonation down to an art and a science, it would be my first guess as to why you have no head. Best of luck!

[tappullers]

Hey Phillip,
I was hoping you could elaborate a little on the art and science of carbonation or point me in the direction of some good readings on the subject. I've been having some issues with getting the head retention I desire in our beers and am looking for some guidance / best practices.

I think my issue may be foaming the product during the centrifuge / filtration step. I've noticed bubbly product in the site glass as it enters and exits the centrifuge...

Always enjoy reading your posts.
Thanks!
Pete


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cmike]

Camphor test

Hey Phillip,
I was hoping you could elaborate a little on the art and science of carbonation or point me in the direction of some good readings on the subject. I've been having some issues with getting the head retention I desire in our beers and am looking for some guidance / best practices.

I think my issue may be foaming the product during the centrifuge / filtration step. I've noticed bubbly product in the site glass as it enters and exits the centrifuge...

Always enjoy reading your posts.
Thanks!
Pete


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Camphor test a keg

Clean kegs like normal fill with water that passed camphor and test water coming out of the keg

If they fail use a degreaser with your caustic wash until they pass

New kegs have a lot of grease in them

If you can't get them to pass you have oil coming from your kegging process most likely your plants air system.

Cheers