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  • Cip

    Greetings everyone,
    For the past 5 years I have been doing my CIP re-circulation in a closed system. I would fill the FV with appropriate amount of hot water and caustic. Make a loop between the bottom of the tank, pump and CIP arm. Run the CIP for 15-20min with all the vents closed. I was told yesterday that the producer might be running a danger of imploding or exploding the tanks. The tanks are fitted with 15psi pressure valve and re-circulation is under 10psi. Try to look up the info but couldn't find any SOP that mention venting, or lack of, during CIP. Any advice would be appreciated.

  • #2
    Do you preheat/rinse the tank prior to the CIP water and caustic? is the tank still ccold when you do that? When hot rinse water is sprayed over cold walls it will rapidly expand and can build pressure I wonder if that is what the concern was
    Mike Eme
    Brewmaster

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    • #3
      Yes. The tanks are pre-rinsed several times with hot water to bring the temp as close as possible, and loosen some debris, to wash cycle temp of 70'C(158'F).

      Comment


      • #4
        Never had the pressure increase above 10psi when I added 190F water for CIP or during the cycle. I am afraid of imploding if I use cold water with the Sani and the the PVRV fails, So I will usually leave another port open if I can.

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        • #5
          If the pressure builds, you will need to ensure the pump output pressure is high enough to produce the design spray pattern and impact pressure against the walls. For instance if you have got a pump that will just produce 1.5 bar at ambient temperature and pressure, this is likely to be adequate for effective SB action (see suppliers spec for exact requirements). If this pump can produce a maximum of 1.5 bar then if you add say 0.5 bar due to increased temperature, then your spray ball will be, or is likely to be ineffective - i.e. you get poor cleaning.

          The more serious issue is if some of the pressure is relieved during the hot cycle, and no anti vac valve is fitted. When you spray with ambient (cold) water, or allow to cool down, then you are likely to suck the tank walls in. There are a few photos around showing the effects of collapse vessels, both on this site, and particularly, accessed via the dreaded google or similar.
          dick

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          • #6
            So I have basically the same concern with our new 5 BBL (used) tanks. They are rated higher - 30 PSI - but in the course of cleaning 160F causic solution I am creating a bit of a vaccum. I cracked the racking arm to vent, but am I just sucking more ambient air in? We are in Latitute 10 so the ambient temp is consistently around 90F, which I assume is good with respect to my concern. Is there just an imagined danger or are there steps we should take to eliminate the possibility of the vessel collapsing in on itself?

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            • #7
              If you do not get all of the carbon dioxide form the tank, and then run a caustic cleaning cycle with out venting, you run the risk of collapsing the tank. The caustic reacts with carbon dioxide to produce sodium carbonate. You lose all of the volume the carbon dioxide was taking up and can form a vacuum, and suck the tank in.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jim Lieb View Post
                If you do not get all of the carbon dioxide form the tank, and then run a caustic cleaning cycle with out venting, you run the risk of collapsing the tank. The caustic reacts with carbon dioxide to produce sodium carbonate. You lose all of the volume the carbon dioxide was taking up and can form a vacuum, and suck the tank in.
                This is exactly the biggest concern.

                Your vessel should always be vented to avoid any cause of implosion when not in use or being sanitized.

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                • #9
                  Quote

                  If you do not get all of the carbon dioxide form the tank, and then run a caustic cleaning cycle with out venting, you run the risk of collapsing the tank. The caustic reacts with carbon dioxide to produce sodium carbonate. You lose all of the volume the carbon dioxide was taking up and can form a vacuum, and suck the tank in.

                  This is exactly the biggest concern.


                  Actually, the biggest rate of pressure change occurs when changing from hot to cold. But the outcome is the same, but even more catastrophically obvious - collapsed tanks unless efficient antivac valves are installed, or the tank is specifically designed to be capable of withstanding the potential / actual vacuum
                  dick

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                  • #10
                    Why?

                    I just have to ask why anyone would need extremely hot CIP? Besides wasting heat and stressing your tank welds, it is extremely dangerous to CIP near-boiling solutions of caustic! This is an accident waiting to happen. I can visualize a CIP hose at a head-height CIP arm popping off a poorly made hose end and blasting hot caustic all over some poor schmuck's face. There is absolutely NO NEED for this. Your solutions should be only as hot as absolutely necessary to remove soils in a reasonable amount of time. And your cleaning solution need be only as strong as absolutely necessary to remove soils in a reasonable amount of time. I wouldn't use caustic either! There are great alternatives to NaOH. Much safer. At lower temperatures. Why are folks not using a milder chemical at lower temperatures? In a rush? Is it just the way you've always done it? Or is that the way you've been taught? I've seen brewing get less safe over the years. This industry is only "dangerous" because people are climbing on board who don't appreciate safety. Sorry for the rant, but when enough people get hurt (or killed), you will be regulated by your nanny government because you didn't self-regulate and think safely.
                    Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                      I just have to ask why anyone would need extremely hot CIP? Besides wasting heat and stressing your tank welds, it is extremely dangerous to CIP near-boiling solutions of caustic! This is an accident waiting to happen. I can visualize a CIP hose at a head-height CIP arm popping off a poorly made hose end and blasting hot caustic all over some poor schmuck's face. There is absolutely NO NEED for this. Your solutions should be only as hot as absolutely necessary to remove soils in a reasonable amount of time. And your cleaning solution need be only as strong as absolutely necessary to remove soils in a reasonable amount of time. I wouldn't use caustic either! There are great alternatives to NaOH. Much safer. At lower temperatures. Why are folks not using a milder chemical at lower temperatures? In a rush? Is it just the way you've always done it? Or is that the way you've been taught? I've seen brewing get less safe over the years. This industry is only "dangerous" because people are climbing on board who don't appreciate safety. Sorry for the rant, but when enough people get hurt (or killed), you will be regulated by your nanny government because you didn't self-regulate and think safely.

                      1, Better cleaning effect up to 70-75 degrees c

                      2. When cleaning hot objects, caustic needs to be hot. Brewhouses gets clean with only caustic

                      3. Thermal expansion in things like wort cooler during cleaning is a good thing

                      4. When cleaning with hot caustic, 75-80 degrees, you can skip the disinfection afterwards. Just rinse and you're done

                      If you reduce the chemical effect and the thermal effect, you need to compensate by alot more mechanical effect and time.

                      If you do not have your tanks equipped with rotary jet heads, that costs a fortune, there really are no alternatives to caustic.

                      If one is very concerned about safety, get an automated CIP-system with automatic dosing.

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                      • #12
                        VENT ALWAYS! don't rely on PRV's, they are last line of defense safety devices. the exception would be acid cleaning BBT's under pressure but that's acid only.
                        Brewmaster, Minocqua Brewing Company
                        tbriggs@minocquabrewingcompany.com
                        "Your results may vary"

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                        • #13
                          I don't buy it...

                          I run a packaging brewery and do not use ANY caustic. There are safer alternatives. My tanks are pristine. I'll trade a bit longer CIP schedule for safety any day. I don't know any chemical company that recommends their product be used at temperatures over 60C. It's just not safe, plain and simple.
                          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                            I run a packaging brewery and do not use ANY caustic. There are safer alternatives. My tanks are pristine. I'll trade a bit longer CIP schedule for safety any day. I don't know any chemical company that recommends their product be used at temperatures over 60C. It's just not safe, plain and simple.
                            Safety depends on your equipment. If you have hoses everywhere and tanks that need to be vented and people have to walk around the hoses and tanks during CIP to work, then no. It is not safe.

                            Hot caustic has been standard for brewhouses for a long time and it gets the job done without having to use different chemicals.

                            Source: http://www.conserve-greatlakes.com/R...g+in+Place.PPT

                            Also every chemical company I have bought from, including Ecolab and Diversey.
                            Last edited by grnis; 01-22-2016, 01:56 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                              I run a packaging brewery and do not use ANY caustic. There are safer alternatives. My tanks are pristine. I'll trade a bit longer CIP schedule for safety any day. I don't know any chemical company that recommends their product be used at temperatures over 60C. It's just not safe, plain and simple.
                              Can you elaborate on your CIP process?

                              thnx

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