Fermenting with Lactobacillus

[FeloniousPhil]

OK. Here is my question. Well, two really. I was thinking about Berliner Wiesse last week, and it got me to thinking. What if one were to make 'lambic' beers using this process rather than open fermentation/brett. Has anyone tried this? Would it work? How long do you think it would take for a proper level of lactic fermentation to take place.

I am just curious if anyone thinks that this might be a good way to try and replicate that unique tart/sour taste of true Belgian lambic.

[crassbrauer]

Lambic fermentation is performed by waves of different microbes, each setting the stage for the other. There are so many different kinds involved at the various stages of fermentation and lagering that it is impossible to try to recreate it; in fact, analysis has uncovered only a portion of the microbes responsible for the flavor profile of lambic. What would be especially difficult to recreate would be the symbiotic interdependency among the microbes present during the process. Unfortunately, lactobacillus and yeast alone won't do the trick. Plus traditional lambic is a blend of beers aged for one to three years. There's a 1992 issue of Scientific American which discusses the microbiology of lambic at length and shows a graph of the known microbes involved at each stage. If you want to try to brew a sour, lambic-like beer, then you may want to throw in several different cultures of microbes (for example, Bretanomyces bruxellensis and/or lambicus, pedios, lactos, different wild yeast strains, wine and beer yeast), wood chips, aged hops (cheesy smelling), etc. The yeast in the lambic comes in part from the barrels used to ferment and age the beer. You know, act like it’s the Middle Ages, and maybe dip a pigeon in the wort for good measure. Then brew a normal beer along the same lines which can be used to blend with your funky one. Oh, and use unmalted wheat in the grist, about 30 %. Oddly, except for the choice of spices (dates, sesame, etc. instead of cherries or raspberries and hops), the first beers ever to be brewed in the Near East also had about 30 % unmalted wheat in the grist. Cantillion and Drie Fonteinen are two good examples of traditional lambic. Unfortunately, few brewers have the time, money and patience to make traditional lambic, anymore. I think it’d be a hoot to try and make a lambic, if you didn’t permanently infect your brewery doing it.

[FeloniousPhil]

Thanks for your reply. I agree with everything you said, and I certainly understand the 'infection' issues involved with bretanomyces et al. While I am sure lactobacilus also has the capacity for infection I was wondering if it might not be less virulent (if I can use that word) than bret and other wild yeasts associated with lambic production, and therefore be something that people are a little more willing to experiment with.

Obviously a fruit beer made lactobacilus and no bret or other wild yeasts associated with lambic production are not going to be the same as 'traditional lambics', but I am interested in what such a beer would taste like. Call it what you will, as I certainly don't wish to roil the waters as to what constitutes a real lambic (i.e. Cantillon vs. Lindeman's or Chapeu).

It was actually the combination between the tartness of Berliner Weisse and the wheat content in both Lambics and Berliner Weisse that got me thinking it might be interesting to make some attempt to combine the two styles, maybe creating something entirely new out of it. I can't be the first person to think of this. I figure someone has tried this before. Whether it worked or not I could not say.

A little closer to home (for you anyway) I was wondering if any German brewer has ever used fruit when making a Berliner Weisse? Would this be against the Reinheitsgebot? Seems like it would be, but I can't be certain. Secondly, do any of the breweries that make Berliner Weisse make other beer (styles) as well? If so are there ever issues with lacto infections where they should not be?

Phil

[Sir Brewsalot]

I can't say I've tried anything like it, but I like the sound of the idea a lot - make a 5-10gal pilot and tell us how it comes out!

Scott

[crassbrauer]

Berliner Kindl and Schultheiss both produce “normal” beers. The additives to Berliner Weisse are put in the beers after brewing is finished. It’s like making a “Radler”. The soft drink is added to the beer immediately prior to bottling or the two are mixed by the server. Therefore, these drinks are made from beers brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot.

Berliner Weisse is brewed using a mixed culture or with the addition of a pure culture of lactobacillus to top-fermenting yeast. This mixed culture could become problematic if you have a small brewery, where you can’t separate the fermentation areas. Whether this has been a problem in the past in Berliner breweries, I don’t really know (I live a long way from there, so I haven’t really heard much gossip about what goes on in those breweries). Top-fermenting beers have traditionally been much more susceptible to infection due to the higher temperatures. A lot of Bavarian breweries brew bottom- and top-fermenting beers (Berliner Weisse is, of course, also a top-fermenting beer), and must separate the areas where the two of them are fermented or problems result, especially those with open fermenters. By the way, for acidifying wort German brewers use the lactobacillus naturally occurring on the malt or they keep a culture (to create “Sauergut”), which only produce lactic acid (i.e. no other fermentation by-products) and function only at around 48 degrees C, so they’re not a problem.

[patto1ro]

A little closer to home (for you anyway) I was wondering if any German brewer has ever used fruit when making a Berliner Weisse? Would this be against the Reinheitsgebot? Seems like it would be, but I can't be certain.

Phil

Even though this thread is quite old, I thought you might be interested in this.

German brewers did make fruit beers at one time. Yes, it is against the Reinheitsgebot, but you have to remember this was only extended to all of Germany around 1900. North German brewers used all sorts of ingredients not allowed in Bavaria: oats, unmalted wheat, coriander, salt, fruit. Pretty much like Belgium, really

These are descriptions of fruit beers taken from "Der Vollkommene Bierbrauer oder kurzer Unterricht all Arten Bier zu brauen" (1784) (Reprint Verlag Leipzig, ISBN 3-8262-0201-5):

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/gerstyle.htm#fruit

They suggest using Broyhan - a sour wheat beer - as the base.

Berlliner Weisse was only one member of a whole family of sour North German beers: Berliner Weiße, Lichtenhainer, Hamburger Weissbier and Leipziger Gose. They were lightly-hopped and soured during primary fermentation.

There was a second family of heavily-hopped sour beers: Dortmunder Adambier and Münsterländer Altbier. These only became sour during a long secondary fermentation - at least 12 months - in oak casks.

There is a somewhat longer description of these styles here:

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/gerstyle.htm#north

You can see chemical analyses of some of these beers here (on page 829):

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/beerale.htm#wahlheni

The "Jahrbuch der Versuchs- und Lehranstalt für Brauerei in Berlin, 1911" has a very interesting article about these sour beers. The author laments the fact that most are unknown outside a small, local area, the exception being Berliner Weisse. Which is ironic, in a way, since Berliner Weisse (after the closure of Kindl) is now only brewed in a single brewery and Leipziger Gose brewed in three.

If you´re after a weird beer, Geithayner Bier, should fit the bill. A barley beer, it was spontaneously-fermented then lagered in natural rock cellars. You can find a deescription of how to brew it here:

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/gerstyle.htm