Boiler & Water Heating Questions

[YuppietownBrews]

Hey there probrewers,

We're looking at boilers and I was hoping you guys could help me out with a few questions.

A) Who are the big boiler companies that have worked with a lot of breweries in the US? Any recommendations on companies that you've personally had a good experience with are welcome.

B) From an efficiency standpoint, which type of boiler is better - gas, oil, or electric (though we're primarily interested in natural gas or electric). I know the government offers incentives for things like energy star appliances. Is there anything similar for Boilers? I've heard some breweries are using solar water heaters to at least bring the temps up on their water. Anyone have any experience with solar water heating?

C) From a cost standpoint, which is typically better, gas or electric?

D) Is there a calculation I can use to estimate the heating time required for water based on the size of the boiler or the temperature of the steam it outputs?

E) Do most breweries use low pressure or high pressure steam? I've read low pressure systems can get up to 240 degrees while high pressure systems can get up to 365 degrees, but that high pressure systems are more expensive and dangerous to work with. Is 365 degrees too hot for breweries - to the point that you'd have to worry about scorching the beer? Since your high pressure systems get roughly 120 degrees hotter, would that decrease your heating times by roughly 1/3rd?

Any other advice on water heating applications is welcome. Thanks again and Merry Christmas all!

[Starcat]

Some of your questions depend on the Boiler Horsepower you need.
The most rugged, most reliable, and longest lasting boiler which is almost always fully repairable is the Scotch Marine Fire tube Boiler with modulating fire. They are more expensive first cost but well worth the money. I stay well away from the Cleaver Brooks brand. Just about any one you buy can be set up to run on gas or fuel oil and changeover is easy.
Check out former threads on Boilers. Many systems out there are set up to fail from the start and there are types that simply cannot handle bad water quality without self destructing. These types are to avoided in a Brewery and you DO need basic chemical treatment and in some cases to feed with soft water. You need a daily blowdown schedule.
Your boiler is best to be set up in a BOILER ROOM that has the correct air induction and capability for addition of heat if your boiler room can drop below freezing. Every boiler locks out at some point.
For water heating you can go with steam jacketed HLT or a tube bundle system. Thermaline makes some excellent tube bundle systems and can advise you on recovery times.
A duplex return pump system with capability to take one pump out of service and still have one on line is the best redundancy. Weinmann makes the best I have used. You need critical spare parts on hand and your boiler needs to be walked by and listened to every day. Your return water system has to be set up with a correctly wired fresh water make up feed. Some of the generic return pump tanks do not have the correct float and contact sets to do this in the best way and the wire out has to be considered and things correctly ordered from the start.

[Starcat]

Hey there probrewers,

We're looking at boilers and I was hoping you guys could help me out with a few questions.

A) Who are the big boiler companies that have worked with a lot of breweries in the US? Any recommendations on companies that you've personally had a good experience with are welcome.

B) From an efficiency standpoint, which type of boiler is better - gas, oil, or electric (though we're primarily interested in natural gas or electric). I know the government offers incentives for things like energy star appliances. Is there anything similar for Boilers? I've heard some breweries are using solar water heaters to at least bring the temps up on their water. Anyone have any experience with solar water heating?

C) From a cost standpoint, which is typically better, gas or electric?

D) Is there a calculation I can use to estimate the heating time required for water based on the size of the boiler or the temperature of the steam it outputs?

E) Do most breweries use low pressure or high pressure steam? I've read low pressure systems can get up to 240 degrees while high pressure systems can get up to 365 degrees, but that high pressure systems are more expensive and dangerous to work with. Is 365 degrees too hot for breweries - to the point that you'd have to worry about scorching the beer? Since your high pressure systems get roughly 120 degrees hotter, would that decrease your heating times by roughly 1/3rd?

Any other advice on water heating applications is welcome. Thanks again and Merry Christmas all!

10 PSI Steam is plenty dangerous. I prefer to work from 10-30 PSI with respect to boiler choices. You have to match the equipment by the math to what your steam loads are designed to run on. Thats the starting point. The HX surface in whatever load your are looking at will be designed to work within a certain range and you don't want a bunch is mismatched gear with different requirements that does not integrate as a total system.
Solar collectors are a very good idea if you have the space to do it correctly. I am not up on what the most modern evacuated tube designs can deliver but working with a set of older style 4x8 panels [2 each ] I was able to set up a demo that delivered 130F water with a Solar powered recirc pump. The Solar is used for Pre-Heat duty and has to be integrated in a way where it can be used when it is possible to use it. It only works in a certain envelope relative to the weather conditions. They type I did is a HX system, so you are heating water that heats water in another loop. Your usage water does not pass through the Solar array. To do this correctly takes mechanical room space and an HX well that is in conditioned, freeze protected space.
The only style of Electric boiler that I would be interested in are the conductivity type and even those sound like they can be a handfull to operate.