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ironman1997
01-21-2016, 02:05 PM
A few folks approached me about getting a nano or a micro started up for them. One owns a BBQ joint, the other runs a very successful pizza joint. The pizza place has draft beer, the BBQ place only has bottles.
The thought here is go 3 bbl to start, or really go for it with a 10 or 15bbl system. As a brewer, I know the answer, but how can I convince 2 other guys that a pizza joint & a BBQ restaurant will burn through 3bbls quickly. The BBQ place has 99 seats, and the pizza place is about the same size.

It would be either a very cramped venture next to the BBQ place (30X25), and we would still have to "distribute" to the pizza place. Or we could go off site & one of our wives could open a distro company. The BBQ only serves bottles, but wants to expand to next door & put in a big bar with at least 20 taps. The pizza place has 8 taps, with no macros, but wants to expand.

Opinions? Thoughts? Warnings? I know the answer to the brew house size, anybody have a simple chart or powerpoint? HA!

rdcpro
01-21-2016, 03:38 PM
I've been thinking about the same thing...how about they do a small "show" system (even, possibly, BIAB), perhaps only pilot brewing, and you contract brew for them in a separate facility? Or, if they want to do the brewing themselves, set them up as an AP tenant in your brewery (assuming you have capacity), or if not, they share an offsite 15 bbl brewery as alternating proprietors.

Regards,
Mike

nohandslance
01-21-2016, 04:08 PM
I just brewed on the Portland Kettle Works 3.5 bbl system they have at their "Labrewatory" in Portland. we yielded 4bbls, and could have easily turned the batch in 5 hours. mill in to clean up. Highly recommended and a kick ass skid mounted system. With 2 to 4 Double FV's you could produce a lot of product in a small footprint.

Lance
Rebel Malting Co.
Reno, Nevada USA

TheCarolinian
01-22-2016, 08:24 AM
I am also in planning stages of a brewpub. All research ive found, as well as other brewers in area, suggest 5-10bbl per seat per year, so you could factor that out for them. At 99 seats thats 495-990 bbl per year. At 3bbl, thats up to 330 batches per year. You would be brewing, racking, and packaging almost every day of the year, so labor cost is greater. Plus, you would need enough fermenters to keep that going. If you say 18 day total fermention time as liberal average, that means you would need as many as 18 fermenters or more to keep a new batch every day. Then you get into how many kegs you might need at one time.

On the other hand, I think 10 or 15 bbl batches might be more than you need. Ive worked out a lot of modles for doing a brewpub, exclusively focusing on on-premise sales, and 7bbl brewhouse with 4 fermenters is a good starting point for us. We are planning to have an 85 seat dining room with a 15 seat bar.

You should also have them look at their current and past beer sales as a reference point for how much beer they can move.


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ironman1997
01-22-2016, 03:45 PM
Thanks for the responses. TheCarolinian, the brew house would more than likely be located at the BBQ joint, but it would be keg only at the pizza place about 30 miles away. We're talking about over 200 seats if we open up any new space at all in the brewery for a bar, and the pizza place doesn't count about 40 outdoor seats in their count The BBQ place has maybe 6 bar seats, and the pizza place none. The BBQ joint really wants to expand the bar if space allows. The pizza place would have to sacrifice some tables to put in any kind of bar.

All this seems like great ammo for me to keep at them to get at least a 7 if not 10 bbl system. Space will be the big issue next to the BBQ place, and since we will have to transport offsite, I really would just rather find a massive warehouse & convert it to a brewery, instead of being so cramped downtown with no docks, no space for delivery trucks etc...

Thanks!

ironman1997
06-09-2016, 06:31 PM
So, the big system deal fell through. I've been offered the pleasure of trying to stuff as big of brewery as I can into a on site tasting room only place. Everything but the coldroom would be in a 22x22' room. I'm thinking there's no way to do much more than 2 or 3 bbl. Thoughts?

admin
06-09-2016, 07:38 PM
How high is the ceiling. Can you go up?

TheCarolinian
06-10-2016, 07:26 AM
So, the big system deal fell through. I've been offered the pleasure of trying to stuff as big of brewery as I can into a on site tasting room only place. Everything but the coldroom would be in a 22x22' room. I'm thinking there's no way to do much more than 2 or 3 bbl. Thoughts?

22x22?! Meters I hope! Just kidding. Will you need to also have a bar, seating, storage, bathrooms, keg washer, empty keg storage, grain storage, mill room, CO2 tank, boiler, chiller, and anything else that's not a tank of some sort? Some of these things can be external if you're attaching onto another building where the restaurant is. For example, the CO2 tank, boiler, and chiller could be placed exterior to the building. Perhaps you can use the storage that belongs to the restaurant. If not, there's no way you will be able to fit all this into a 22x22' space along with the brewhouse and tanks, even at 2-3BBL. What all needs to go into the space?

ironman1997
06-12-2016, 08:03 AM
22x22?! Meters I hope! Just kidding. Will you need to also have a bar, seating, storage, bathrooms, keg washer, empty keg storage, grain storage, mill room, CO2 tank, boiler, chiller, and anything else that's not a tank of some sort? Some of these things can be external if you're attaching onto another building where the restaurant is. For example, the CO2 tank, boiler, and chiller could be placed exterior to the building. Perhaps you can use the storage that belongs to the restaurant. If not, there's no way you will be able to fit all this into a 22x22' space along with the brewhouse and tanks, even at 2-3BBL. What all needs to go into the space?

This is basically the back room of an already established distillery. The bar is in place, the boiler is natural gas, bathrooms in place. Storage would be a problem, but there is an upstairs over part of the bar. I suppose that could work for yeast & a small lab/office space. Cold room & grain storage/mill room could very easily be hooked onto the back of the building. Ceiling height is at least 20', if not more.

There is a micro distillery in the space now. All I would really need in the small space in the back would be for the MT, HLT, BK, and fermenters. The brite tanks would be in the cold room. No kegs to start out with. CO2 tank could easily go outside.

The "room" has 3 phase, 2 trench floor drains, a ramp down into it, and a large 3 bay sink. Lighting sucks, but that's fixable.

FarGohn
06-13-2016, 08:07 AM
I have my 2 vessel 5BBL with 3 fermenters in a ~7' x 20' space plus a 10x12 cold room and a 4x8 corner for grain and tools. I guess thats ~292 sq ft total. Produced 250BBL my first year. I am closed Mon/Tues and dont open until 4 W/Th/F. Those are my brewing times and I sprawl out into the pub space. I do store empty/dirty kegs and random crap in a storage space on the second floor. So there is that space to account for as well.

That said, I dream of dedicated space. But I am glad when the doors open that of my 1500sqft space, 1200 is available for people. With some limited outdoor seating I now have 82 seats. Real profit comes when every seat is full. More seats means more people can fit when it gets busy, without the walk-aways at the door. Thats $$ walking away because its too "busy".

I feel the 5BBL system is appropriately sized for the space. May need to jam another fermenter in there but overall I think the tradeoff in capacity/space considerations was correct. I am very glad I didnt go with the 1.5BBL system I initially considered. Every time I knockout and hit the 45gal mark with 140 more to go I say a little murmur of thanks.

ChesterBrew
06-13-2016, 09:11 AM
I have a 3bbl brewery in a 24x34 space with a 10x14 walk-in cooler inside. We have a 3-vessel brewhouse, 4 fermenters, and 2 brites. Your space size could definitely work so long as you're willing to make some compromises.

The most important priority IMO is to have enough space to get in every nook and cranny for cleaning. Storage can always occur vertically, and items that can be on casters and moved around if needed for a workday are highly desirable.

Good luck!

TheCarolinian
06-13-2016, 10:46 AM
I am very glad I didnt go with the 1.5BBL system I initially considered. Every time I knockout and hit the 45gal mark with 140 more to go I say a little murmur of thanks.

Yes! This is why I'm going with 7bbl!

ironman1997
06-13-2016, 01:36 PM
I have a 3bbl brewery in a 24x34 space with a 10x14 walk-in cooler inside. We have a 3-vessel brewhouse, 4 fermenters, and 2 brites. Your space size could definitely work so long as you're willing to make some compromises.

The most important priority IMO is to have enough space to get in every nook and cranny for cleaning. Storage can always occur vertically, and items that can be on casters and moved around if needed for a workday are highly desirable.

Good luck!

That gives me hope. I used to brew in a space that was basically a football stadium. A 7bbl brewery that could have easily held a 50 bbl. The grain room & the cold room will NOT be inside the brewhouse, so I think if I'm prudent with space, then I should be ok.

Thanks!

ironman1997
06-13-2016, 01:40 PM
Yes! This is why I'm going with 7bbl!

The reason I'm not pushing harder for a bigger system is that this space already exists behind an established bar. anything over 3bbl or so just wont fit, or at least I don't think so. If I go offsite from the bar, then I get into the pure three tier hell here. I would prefer a 7 bbl house with 14bbl fermenters, but it is what it is!

CitraKilla
07-09-2016, 07:53 PM
think about high volume use with minimal brew time. These guys have an "oversized grain father" style system. http://www.cobrewingsystems.com/