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  • residue on hose ends

    We have been noticing a slight residue on the ends of our hoses - we hang them on a rack to drain and dry in between uses with both ends hanging down. Even after using them in extensive CIP for cleaning tanks, brewhouse and PHE there is still a slight residue that shows up on the ends from them draining while they hang. We haven't had any sanitation issues or off-flavors so I don't think they have internal problems - every hose (we have 6 hoses) has this residue regardless of age. Has anyone else had this same experience and know what what could be causing it? This is a new problem for us here.Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    Manganese or Iron from your water would be my guess. Or your hose is not as cleaned out as you think.

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    • #3
      Are you doing an Acid CIP cycle? Could be some type of biofilm...any residue in your tanks?

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      • #4
        Your hose is not clean and you have some beer stone deposit in it.

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        • #5
          we run alkali, acid rinse then sanitize

          OK - thanks for the replies, the obvious seems that it isn't cleaned or rinsed well enough but we run a long cycle (hour or more). I'm assuming that our acid rinse is getting the beer stone, but maybe not. This is a new problem for us. Maybe we need to change our chemicals. Does anyone know what the flow rate should be for CIP, maybe we don't have sufficient flow?

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          • #6
            I believe the comments about beer stone are correct. It looks as though the design of the joint requires a simple "O" ring. During CIP this is leaving a gap between the two faces - in other words it is not a hygienic design. A hygienic design would have the gasket completely filling the gap between the two metal faces. Assuming my assumption about use of a simple "O" ring is correct, since it almost certainly is not practical to replace all your joints with truly hygienic designs, you have a couple of options. The messiest and unsafest is to leave every joint loose during CIP so there is a dribble from every joint. The other is simply to manually clean every joint with a green scrubby or similar before or after CIP, preferably after, rinse and then spray with sterilant solution. If a simple "O" ring is being used, then no matter what speed you clean at, the CIP will not get into this tiny gap.
            dick

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dick murton View Post
              I believe the comments about beer stone are correct. It looks as though the design of the joint requires a simple "O" ring. During CIP this is leaving a gap between the two faces - in other words it is not a hygienic design. A hygienic design would have the gasket completely filling the gap between the two metal faces. Assuming my assumption about use of a simple "O" ring is correct, since it almost certainly is not practical to replace all your joints with truly hygienic designs, you have a couple of options. The messiest and unsafest is to leave every joint loose during CIP so there is a dribble from every joint. The other is simply to manually clean every joint with a green scrubby or similar before or after CIP, preferably after, rinse and then spray with sterilant solution. If a simple "O" ring is being used, then no matter what speed you clean at, the CIP will not get into this tiny gap.
              That's a triclamp fitting. It's very common in American breweries and worldwide it's very common in the food and pharma industries.
              It's generally considered the most hygenic non-propriatary "quick" fitting.

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              • #8
                Yep--tri-clamp or Tri-Clover (properly) fitting. The gasket has a raised ridge that fills the o-ring-like cut-out in the fitting, and a flange that entirely fills the rest of the fitting. https://www.google.com/search?q=tri-...utf-8&oe=utf-8

                gcbeer--your hose just plain ain't clean. You may not have had problems yet, but you definitely will. From the residue on the inside of that fitting, you're not just looking at beerstone, but actual wort. Check the hose linings to be sure they aren't separating--we've had blistering inside hoses, which can result in wort being retained inside the blister throughout the CIP process, only to exude when the pressure is removed.

                We've had to dump an entire fermenter hall of finished product due to contamination from bad hoses--don't go there. Don't even get into the general vicinity.
                Timm Turrentine

                Brewerywright,
                Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                Enterprise. Oregon.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by gcbeer View Post
                  OK - thanks for the replies, the obvious seems that it isn't cleaned or rinsed well enough but we run a long cycle (hour or more). I'm assuming that our acid rinse is getting the beer stone, but maybe not. This is a new problem for us. Maybe we need to change our chemicals. Does anyone know what the flow rate should be for CIP, maybe we don't have sufficient flow?
                  If your hose looks OK switch your cleaning chemicals. I had the same situation and I switch to chlorinated caustic. Something like Five star Super CIP.

                  Just a word of caution. If you use powder cleaner, make sure it is well dissolved. Otherwise it will stain stainless.

                  Good luck.

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                  • #10
                    tri-clamp or Tri-Clover - in which case if the ends are not warped badly, the seal should seal properly all the way round - hence my thought about a round gasket seal being used - leaving a gap between the mating surfaces.

                    Re CIP flow rate - minimum 1.5 metres / sec, but better around 2 m/ sec. No point in going above 2.2 as it is simply wasting energy. However, this speed will still not clean any minute crevices between the mating surfaces due to poor fitting. Check them out using a sheet of glass and dilute ink if you have doubts.
                    dick

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                    • #11
                      What size pump are you using when you're cleaning? and how long are the lengths of hose that you're cleaning at once?
                      If the pump isn't big enough, or you have very long hose runs you may not be getting turbulent flow throughout the hose, and thus not getting effective cleaning all the way through the hoses.

                      It could also be an issue with not using enough chemical, or rinsing well enough. Also, particularly with wort, if the cleaning solution isn't hot enough you may be getting residue that way.
                      A final thought, check inside the hose with a flashlight where the TC fitting is mated to the hose itself - I've seen some fittings leave gaps between the barb on the TC fitting and the hose material itself, it leaves a great pace for crap to hide.

                      Not sure any of that is helpful, but that's what comes to mind at the moment.

                      Cheers
                      Manuel

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                      • #12
                        flow restricted

                        Thanks for all the reply's and advise. I found the problem after digging into it today. I was assuming it was a problem with all hoses in all cases but that doesn't appear to be accurate. I was going to brew again today but figured I needed to get this resolved. I checked the hoses we used to clean a tank yesterday and they drained overnight - no residue. I checked the hoses that were hooked up to clean the brewhouse and drained overnight and no residue.

                        But the hoses we used to clean the PHE had some residue after hanging to dry overnight. I modified our keg washer so I can hook up the PHE to it and just run it as long as it takes - forward flow, back flow, etc. I looked down the short hose I use to adapt the fitting from the keg washer to the hose going to the PHE and it had collapsed inside - like a torn section hanging down into the flow. I'm changing that to a welded assembly that eliminates the hose section.

                        Also, I spoke with the person that helps me and they said they really tighten the clamps down to avoid leaks - which will compress the gasket into the flow as some of you suggested. So we're going to have some training on that aspect. We check our solutions with test kits, but maybe we need to up the amount used and make also sure the rinse is getting accomplished thoroughly.

                        Thanks again - Cheers

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                        • #13
                          age of hoses

                          Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                          Yep--tri-clamp or Tri-Clover (properly) fitting. The gasket has a raised ridge that fills the o-ring-like cut-out in the fitting, and a flange that entirely fills the rest of the fitting. https://www.google.com/search?q=tri-...utf-8&oe=utf-8

                          gcbeer--your hose just plain ain't clean. You may not have had problems yet, but you definitely will. From the residue on the inside of that fitting, you're not just looking at beerstone, but actual wort. Check the hose linings to be sure they aren't separating--we've had blistering inside hoses, which can result in wort being retained inside the blister throughout the CIP process, only to exude when the pressure is removed.

                          We've had to dump an entire fermenter hall of finished product due to contamination from bad hoses--don't go there. Don't even get into the general vicinity.
                          How old were your hoses when they started to deteriorate? Is there a rule of thumb for the life of a brewers hose?

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                          • #14
                            Had another read of the original post, and realised that this was the drainings, not staining left due to a gap between the mating surfaces of the joint. Apologies for going off at a tangent.

                            Re hoses - assuming they have a separate food grade liner inside the main structural body of the hose (e.g. purple snake), if the hose is kinked badly, and as noted before, this is commonly where the connecting tail ends, then the lining can separate and tear / break up, allowing beer / cip between the liner and the main hose structure. Often you can tell this by very soft spots. I which case, the only answer is to replace the damaged hoses.

                            Hoses are typically damaged like this by being attached to a horizontal pipe, and dropping to the floor, creating a right angle bend. If this is the case, suggest you have 45 degree bends made up to reduce the bending and damage.
                            dick

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gcbeer View Post
                              How old were your hoses when they started to deteriorate? Is there a rule of thumb for the life of a brewers hose?
                              We used to use hose barb-TC ends with Band-it clamps for our hoses. Every year, we'd cut the ends off and re-band them. The smell of the fittings when we removed the hose ends should have been enough warning that those areas were not getting cleaned/sanitized. Our hoses were probably about 6 years old when we had major problems--mostly due to crud in the hose ends, where the Band-it clamps failed to completely seal. The one product hose we had that developed internal blisters was older yet.

                              We're now using hoses with internally-swaged fittings, and rotate them out of use after 3 years (supplier recommends 3-5 years). Very expensive--but dumping many 10s of k$ of ruined beer is more expensive. We learned the hard way.

                              We've also learned to inspect the crap out of our hoses--especially looking down the hose from the fitting end every time we use them, paying special attention to anything that looks even vaguely like liner separation. Even the best quality brewery hoses, with the best quality fittings, can get damaged or just spontaneously develop liner separations. Like Dick said, avoiding sharp bends and NEVER stepping on a hose makes them last much longer, but considering that every bit of product will pass through these hoses at some point, it's absolutely critical to inspect, inspect, inspect.

                              We just returned a few hoses that are showing liner separation after 18 months in use--it looks like the ends were crimped too tightly, or maybe it was just a bad run of hose, but the liner is blistering and separating at the junction of the fittings and hose.

                              Life of a hose is going to depend on usage, brand, quality, and so many variables that it's impossible to simply say "replace your hoses every -- years".
                              Last edited by TGTimm; 03-24-2016, 01:33 PM.
                              Timm Turrentine

                              Brewerywright,
                              Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                              Enterprise. Oregon.

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