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Ampco Pumps 3
05-02-2016, 07:00 AM
Hello,

My name is Marcus Traber, an engineer at Ampco Pumps. I want to begin a discussion about dry hopping methods/schedule/techniques to give us more breadth of knowledge beyond the breweries we've worked with. I thought it would be good to have that discussion openly here, so perhaps you guys can share ideas in one place as well.

disclaimer: we DO sell equipment for dry hopping - please see link and video if you're interested. This thread is not to promote that equipment so please PM me for questions on that. I think it's necessary to share it so you understand our background. We've done about 40-50 trials nationwide. Usually when we trial, we are using our equipment, but not changing any other variables - same amount of hops and same waiting period.

http://www.ampcopumps.com/aap/blenders-and-mixers-series-information/rolec-dh/
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qfkbhg8jmu44v1p/Ampco%20Rolec%20DH%20video.mp4?dl=0

When:

1. We've dry hopped at final gravity after yeast is dropped/harvested.
2. we've dry hopped at final gravity and on semi-crashed or colder than ambient temperatures
3. we've dry hopped on fermenting beer around 0.5 degree plato before FG with some yeast dropped

Wait period:

We've heard wait periods "on the dry hop" of as short as 24 hours and as long as one week.

I have a few questions:

1. does your brewery recirculate with a cellar pump? if so, do you find any difference in the flavor or aroma?
2. if yes to above question; do you notice a shorter hop/trube pile? or do you centrifuge so you don't notice anyway?
3. have you experimented with different wait periods? when is there diminishing returns or even off flavors?
4. those using natural yeast rousing (method 3 above) - do you notice that the yeast's relationship with the hops produces different flavors than dry hopping at FG?
5. same for crashed vs. ambient beer.

Thanks in advance,

Marcus Traber
Engineer
Ampco Pumps
262 716 6433

BREWMASON
05-03-2016, 02:25 PM
We are a 3bbl startup and have been experimenting with these processes extensively. Although we are small we are aware of your product line. I am experimenting with Falconers Flight 7, Simcoe, Citra and Idaho 7. Best results have been achieved by utilizing flame out / whirlpool while recirculating through the heat exchanger. Temps are knocked down to almost 120F in 15-20min and once in route to ferm can get as low as 70F in another 30min.

When dry hopping I have had best results at FG after yeast has been collected. I will recirculate for 30min -1hr using a 1.5hp CPE washdown pump with VFD set at 2000rpm. Better results have been acheived the longer we recirculate. The hops will remain in the ferm until day 3. WHen hops are removed we add biofine, recirculate biofine and sit on biofine for 4-5 days before transferring to brite. The biofine has taken away some of the aromatics but not as much as when dry hop and biofine were experimented with at the same addition / time. Co2 will naturally settle some aromatics out as well but not to out of the norm.

Marketing idea: Offer an attachment conical that smaller breweries can attach to their existing pump carts. Of course by making the conical small you expand your marketing to smaller nano breweries while not de-tracting from the larger micro on up breweries. Really like the pressure lid with glass see through so as to visually validate hop utilization & co2 pressure is keeping wort from entering the connical.

Mark Keller - Bruehol Brewing
707-327-6768

Junkyard
05-04-2016, 08:16 PM
We've tried recirculating hops with a pump once before and felt we like no recirculation best. This was over a year ago and I should probably try it again, but it's also a lot of work for not much more return.

We've tried dry hopping during fermentation just after peak fermentation (3 days or so). The hops probably interact with the yeast but I also think that fermentation blows off a lot of the aromas you want to keep. We still do this with DIPA's but with a relatively small charge.

Our bulk of dry hopping takes place after yeast has been harvested and most of the rest dropped out of the cone, when the beer is cooled to 60 degrees. We like to keep the beer on the hops for at least 3 days but sometimes we have to keg after 2 days and it always turns out great. Rousing hops with co2 has also been helping quite a bit.

Glad to see we have people focusing and innovating on the way we use hops.

Ampco Pumps 3
05-06-2016, 01:53 PM
We've tried recirculating hops with a pump once before and felt we like no recirculation best. This was over a year ago and I should probably try it again, but it's also a lot of work for not much more return.

We've tried dry hopping during fermentation just after peak fermentation (3 days or so). The hops probably interact with the yeast but I also think that fermentation blows off a lot of the aromas you want to keep. We still do this with DIPA's but with a relatively small charge.

Our bulk of dry hopping takes place after yeast has been harvested and most of the rest dropped out of the cone, when the beer is cooled to 60 degrees. We like to keep the beer on the hops for at least 3 days but sometimes we have to keg after 2 days and it always turns out great. Rousing hops with co2 has also been helping quite a bit.

Glad to see we have people focusing and innovating on the way we use hops.

Your temps during your wait period are a bit higher than most people. Have you experimented with this? Thanks, Marcus

Junkyard
05-06-2016, 03:56 PM
I've always liked dry hopping a bit warmer because of faster/increased flavor extraction.. No tests done just my intuition I guess.. 60 degrees is as far as I need to crash to get plenty of yeast out with all the yeast strains we use.

Ampco Pumps 3
05-06-2016, 03:59 PM
I've always liked dry hopping a bit warmer because of faster/increased flavor extraction.. No tests done just my intuition I guess.. 60 degrees is as far as I need to crash to get plenty of yeast out with all the yeast strains we use.

Sorry, I meant to say lower. Only slightly though

gcbeer
05-10-2016, 03:16 PM
After a few years of dry-hopping different ways we settled on this way - standard practice has been to crash the beer from 45F to 33/34F after we pull off yeast - we dry-hop at 33-34 F, after 3 days circulate the beer with a pump for a limited time (20-30 minutes). Let it settle out and rack the beer off once it hits the flavor profile we are seeking - sometimes in a week sometimes in 2 weeks.


1. does your brewery recirculate with a cellar pump? "yes" if so, do you find any difference in the flavor or aroma? not as much as I thought there would be

2. if yes to above question; do you notice a shorter hop/trube pile? "no, we see no difference in the amount of hops that drop out with or without circulating" or do you centrifuge so you don't notice anyway? "we don't filter or centrifuge"


3. have you experimented with different wait periods? "yes, we have left beer on the hops as long as 3 weeks" when is there diminishing returns or even off flavors? "we haven't tasted any off flavors at up to 3 weeks"


4. those using natural yeast rousing (method 3 above) - do you notice that the yeast's relationship with the hops produces different flavors than dry hopping at FG? "couldn't say"


5. same for crashed vs. ambient beer. "not a great deal of difference in our experience, and not very consistent results either. I think the hops are as much a variable as anything else - fresh, old, well stored, not stored so well, etc"

With all that said - we are probably going to have a batch that needs to be moved along here pretty quick due to tank space so we're going to dry-hop right after we complete fermentation; i.e. pull the yeast while in the high 50's and then start the dry-hop. I'll let you know if there is a noticeable difference from our usual colder temp with yeast dropped out dry-hopping.

Cheers

Ted Briggs
05-11-2016, 06:38 AM
I am considering this technique and your machine looks like a good option because it has its own pump. It looks like it would be good for other additions too, fruit ect.

My biggest concern is polyphenol extraction from the hops, as your machine acts like a blender. Recent articles suggest this technique is all about balancing extraction vs Polyphenols. Have you done any measurements of this during your trials?

Also- have you tried whole cone hops with this? I see it has a recirculation feature, perhaps recirc the cones until they were small enough to inject into the FV?

Ampco Pumps 3
05-11-2016, 07:07 AM
I am considering this technique and your machine looks like a good option because it has its own pump. It looks like it would be good for other additions too, fruit ect.

My biggest concern is polyphenol extraction from the hops, as your machine acts like a blender. Recent articles suggest this technique is all about balancing extraction vs Polyphenols. Have you done any measurements of this during your trials?

Also- have you tried whole cone hops with this? I see it has a recirculation feature, perhaps recirc the cones until they were small enough to inject into the FV?

Hi Ted,

I'll start with the basics. We have done fruit purees, biofine, lactic acids, wine must, dextrose and a few other things successfully.

Recently from CBC Philadelphia here are the seminars in pdf form. Please see the one titled Using Hops More
Efficiently: Grower and
Brewer Perspectives

page 58

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/2016-attendee-bag/2016-presentations - Password (case-sensitive): CBCPHL16

there are experiments doing stirring for periods of time and at different temperatures that show two graphs with different chemicals/compounds. There is definitely more extraction...there's no chance that all of these produce favorable flavors. I can only speak from our trials, in that we've had MOSTLY good results. There have been probably 6/50 reports of off flavors. The problem is that not all sensory panels are trained to the same level, and a preconceived notion of off flavors can produce a failed test. I'm not trying to detract from breweries' sensory techniques, but merely pointing out that there are lots of variables. We are undoubtedly producing more flavors and aromas from forced contact. The recirculation time, wait period, temperatures and amount of yeast dropped are all factors that can change results. We do not claim to have enough data yet, since none of it is formal.

To summarize: results have been mostly positive.

with whole cone hops, we would need to enlist the use of the whirlpool right away to flush them into the tee. This shouldn't be a problem unless you overload the hop chamber. Even with floating particles like whole-leaf hops they will be forced down by the vortex and CO2 pressure.

thanks
marcus

Ampco Pumps 3
05-13-2016, 12:07 PM
We have one customer that wants to dry hop with our equipment at 50 degrees F, recirculate 3 tank-turnovers, and then immediately send all of it to the centrifuge from the bottom of the tank. What are your thoughts on this idea? it could certainly cut several days off his tank time, but my only worry is that he won't get prominent flavors and aromas without the pre-crash wait period. I'm very excited to test it out, since it poses the following possible advantages:

1. he won't have to feed the centrifuge from the racking arm and bottom simultaneously. he can just feed from the bottom
2. he will probably get good clarity and performance out of the centrifuge since all particles will be uniformly distributed throughout the beer while he's transferring to the centrifuge
3. he can cut 2,3,4...several days off his conditioning period
4. he could get much better yield since he has no "pile" in the bottom of the cone.

what are your thoughts?

thanks
marcus

Noble31
02-14-2017, 05:46 AM
I'm a bit late to this party but I'm interested in seeing if there is any more information as to the benifit especially with the new Lupulin powder entering the market.

Chris

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