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More serving-line woes (not talking balance) and mystery foam! Help!

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  • More serving-line woes (not talking balance) and mystery foam! Help!

    Hey Guys,
    Good to be back after not posting for quite sometime (that's a good sign, right?)

    We always had quite a bit of foam at the taps from day 1, and we worked out 95% of the issues over time, including fixing "hot-spots" and by re-balancing the system, etc. Our brites are jacketed, and not in a walk-in, so we obviously use a cooled bundle or "cobra" under the floor. One of the final issues we had was that there was about 5 feet of un-cooled line after the beer lines split off to each tank. So, we did cooling loops for each line and got it all cooled all the way to the tank. There is are no more un-cooled sections of line.

    Before I go on, here are the Facts:

    1) 55 feet of lines
    2) Yes, cooled with glycol
    3) Yes, properly balanced
    4) Yes, cooled all the way to the tank itself (no hotspots)
    5) Yes, we use a blended gas. 50/50 Co2, Nitro
    6) beer is confirmed to be not over-carbed

    So, all is on the up and up, and YET -- When we let our beer sit in the lines for even 15 minutes, I've got a line full of foam. Bottom line -- when we're slow at the brewery and we're not pouring, foam builds up in the lines under the floor. We have to pour an entire pitcher of foam if the beer has sat in there for 15 minutes. That adds up to a LOT of waste. Think a gallons per day. When we're busy and pouring frequently, the beer is clear as a bell.

    All of the issues we talk about here seem to be taken care of. What's going on? Am I to assume that this is just the reality of beer lines which aren't in a walk-in? If they sit they will inevitably go foamy?

    Thanks in advance!

    Tim

  • #2
    I think you need to add one of these into your process:
    Flojet Beer Pump Air or CO2 operated. Control flow rate while maintaining brewer recommended applied pressure on the keg or serving vessel.


    Also check out the micro matic draught guide.

    Comment


    • #3
      Long Draw Systems

      You are not balanced if you are getting that kind of breakout....
      The guide that was mentioned is valuable.
      Blended gas is usually not at 50% mix.
      Let the forum know the pressure on your regulators. The tendency is to run too low. Long draw requires more gas pressure to be stable.
      Your cooling on your bundle needs to be 28-30F range from a " dedicated " system
      Serving from large tanks comes off as more difficult.
      Warren Turner
      Industrial Engineering Technician
      HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
      Moab Brewery
      The Thought Police are Attempting to Suppress Free Speech and Sugar coat everything. This is both Cowardice and Treason given to their own kind.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey All,

        Head pressure on Brites is 16psi - according to draft guide that should be sufficient.

        We have a dedicated glycol system running at around 31F on average.

        As far as the blend goes, I started with 70/30 as per a friend who runs the same at his place. I didn't maintain my volumes of co2 with that blend so I bumped it to 50/50. There are calculators saying I'm supposed to run 80% c02 at my elevation, but I can't do that without a gas blender on site.

        Tim

        Comment


        • #5
          What pressure are the brites rated for? Could your PRVs be releasing co2?

          What size is your line and what's it made of?

          I don't think you need a beer pump at 55 ft.

          You should download the McDantim easyblend app, it's such a useful app and I can't believe I didn't have it before a few weeks ago.

          According to the app, a 32 degree at 6% abv with 2.5 volumes of co2 should be served at 19 psi on a 70% co2 blend. That assumes 2,200 ft of elevation. At a 50% blend, you'd need 32 psi.

          It might be a good investment to get an on-site gas blender, sometimes the pre-mixed tanks don't dispense totally evenly or might not be filled correctly depending on how much your gas supplier cares. If a gas blender fixes your problem it doesn't sound like it would take long for it to pay for itself.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BrewerJake View Post
            What pressure are the brites rated for? Could your PRVs be releasing co2?

            What size is your line and what's it made of?

            I don't think you need a beer pump at 55 ft.

            You should download the McDantim easyblend app, it's such a useful app and I can't believe I didn't have it before a few weeks ago.

            According to the app, a 32 degree at 6% abv with 2.5 volumes of co2 should be served at 19 psi on a 70% co2 blend. That assumes 2,200 ft of elevation. At a 50% blend, you'd need 32 psi.

            It might be a good investment to get an on-site gas blender, sometimes the pre-mixed tanks don't dispense totally evenly or might not be filled correctly depending on how much your gas supplier cares. If a gas blender fixes your problem it doesn't sound like it would take long for it to pay for itself.

            I've been wondering about this, because as you said, that calculator (I do have it) says I need 80% co2 for serving. My brites are only rated to 15psi. Manufacturer says I can go a little higher but I don't want to chance it much higher. I'm pushing them beyond as it is. Maybe I can just rent or borrow a blender to see how it goes before I buy. I cant get higher than 50% co2 pre-blended because it separates under pressure....

            Oh -- and the beer line is 1/4" Barrier (glass smooth.) I do have a couple of barbs in-line where I've spliced. I have always worried about these barbs causing turbulence, but they certainly don't seem to be.
            Last edited by omearabros; 07-09-2016, 04:47 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Aha! You mention barb splices in the line. I had a nightmarish problem with foaming in our new system after I added 5 ft of choker line to one of our towers. The barb splices I used were sold as 3/16", the same as the choker line, but, on visual inspection, they were creating a venturi and the beer was "breaking" violently immediately after the splices. I bought some splices specifically sized for beer line--these are true 3/16 ID, and the problem was gone. If you can get the beer line on the splices without heating the line, the splices aren't big enough.

              While you might not strictly "need" beer pumps, I'm so happy with our new, entirely pumped draught system I can't imagine doing it any other way. Our pours are perfect, I can maintain the exact pressure for equilibrium with the beer, and it's simple to change the rate of pour--just adjust the air pressure regulator--without affecting the quality of the pour. We are running 2 12 product glycol-cooled trunks about 50' each. No mixed gasses, no worries about over-or under-carbed beer.

              The first pumped system I built used a dedicated glycol chiller (power pack) sized for up to 125' of trunk to cool 55' of 8-product trunk. It did not do the job. I'm now using a double-pump chiller rated for 250' of trunk to cool a total of ~90' of 12 product trunk, and our temperatures are perfect. It's great to see the shiny SS towers "sweating" from the cold.
              Last edited by TGTimm; 07-11-2016, 03:40 PM.
              Timm Turrentine

              Brewerywright,
              Terminal Gravity Brewing,
              Enterprise. Oregon.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                Aha! You mention barb splices in the line. I had a nightmarish problem with foaming in our new system after I added 5 ft of choker line to one of our towers. The barb splices I used were sold as 3/16", the same as the choker line, but, on visual inspection, they were creating a venturi and the beer was "breaking" violently immediately after the splices. I bought some splices specifically sized for beer line--these are true 3/16 ID, and the problem was gone. If you can get the beer line on the splices without heating the line, the splices aren't big enough.

                While you might not strictly "need" beer pumps, I'm so happy with our new, entirely pumped draught system I can't imagine doing it any other way. Our pours are perfect, I can maintain the exact pressure for equilibrium with the beer, and it's simple to change the rate of pour--just adjust the air pressure regulator--without affecting the quality of the pour. We are running 2 12 product glycol-cooled trunks about 50' each. No mixed gasses, no worries about over-or under-carbed beer.

                The first pumped system I built used a dedicated glycol chiller (power pack) sized for up to 125' of trunk to cool 55' of 8-product trunk. It did not do the job. I'm now using a double-pump chiller rated for 250' of trunk to cool a total of ~90' of 12 product trunk, and our temperatures are perfect. It's great to see the shiny SS towers "sweating" from the cold.
                Good to know about the barbs -- I'll check. Though -- to clarify, we're not having problems with pours. They pour just fine, and clear. Lovely pours. Our problem is AFTER the beer sits in the lines for a while. After they sit for 20 some minutes, then we get a blast of foam. This isn't a problem with every pour. Am I making sense?

                For example -- I just poured 10 pints of IPA, clear as a bell and lovely. The bar slows down and a don't pour any beer for about 30 minutes. My first pour is all foam, then we're back to regular, nice pours as long as I keep pouring. Now, is that barbs? I don't think so. The break happens in the lines when they sit.

                T

                Comment


                • #9
                  Based on what you're saying with the beer only pouring foamy after sitting a bit I think it might be a temperature thing.

                  Depending on your set up, I'd guess that you have a little beer in the line near the tap that isn't getting chilled properly - maybe just the beer in the towers? It doesn't take much beer to cause a fair bit of foam. I'm not sure what you can do to fix it. Check the temp in that first glass of foam vs the beer that pours well - that may at least tell you what's going on.
                  Manuel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry--I guess I didn't read your IP closely enough.

                    I think Warren s on to it--if it only foams after sitting for a while, and the foam is immediate on opening the faucet, it sure sounds like you've got a heat problem, almost certainly in the tower. Is the tower itself glycol-chilled? The towers that are made for use with glycol-chilled lines have a glycol circuit in the tower itself, and it works very well--the towers will sweat considerably on hot, humid days. We're running three of these chilled towers (Microstar Euro) and never have any problems.
                    Timm Turrentine

                    Brewerywright,
                    Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                    Enterprise. Oregon.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                      Sorry--I guess I didn't read your IP closely enough.

                      I think Warren s on to it--if it only foams after sitting for a while, and the foam is immediate on opening the faucet, it sure sounds like you've got a heat problem, almost certainly in the tower. Is the tower itself glycol-chilled? The towers that are made for use with glycol-chilled lines have a glycol circuit in the tower itself, and it works very well--the towers will sweat considerably on hot, humid days. We're running three of these chilled towers (Microstar Euro) and never have any problems.

                      I would be in agreement about the cooling problem at the taps except it is NOT foamy right away. Here's what happens when after the lines sit for a while:

                      Open the faucet and get one clear pint, followed by a whole pitcher of foam, then nice cold and clear beer as long as we're pouring consistently.

                      Now, most would say there is a "hot spot" further back in the lines, or somewhere, BUT --- I have now effectively eliminated all of the hotspots in these lines. I looped glycol all the way up to the brite tanks, and its about 80% up into our tap tower. So, there is a small amount of uncooled line at the tap, however, the beer does not start out foamy.

                      To recap: the lines are almost totally cooled and run at about 31F on average, and we have no problems pouring beer during consistent times. It gives me a pitcher of foam only if it sits for a while. Keep in mind we have a 50/50 Co2/Nitro blend. Someone up there mentioned that we need more co2 in that blend to keep the gas in solution, and the calculator confirms it, but I don't have a blender I can try it with. Could this be a gas blend problem? I really believe I've eliminated most other issues, unless I'm missing something.

                      Thanks so much for following along and for the help!

                      T

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Is there a high point in the lines about one pint back? If you're getting a little "breaking" in the line from too little CO2, the tiny amount of foam in the rest of the line may be accumulating there.

                        I haven't used mixed gas, but it seems to me that low CO2 in the mix would result in flat beer, not breaking in the line. I do know that the usual mix for ale is 70-30 to 75-25, CO2-N2.

                        As I mentioned before, pumps completely cure any gas mix problems--but cost. I figure ours amortized themselves years ago from the savings in foam waste/server frustration.
                        Timm Turrentine

                        Brewerywright,
                        Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                        Enterprise. Oregon.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                          Is there a high point in the lines about one pint back? If you're getting a little "breaking" in the line from too little CO2, the tiny amount of foam in the rest of the line may be accumulating there.

                          I haven't used mixed gas, but it seems to me that low CO2 in the mix would result in flat beer, not breaking in the line. I do know that the usual mix for ale is 70-30 to 75-25, CO2-N2.

                          As I mentioned before, pumps completely cure any gas mix problems--but cost. I figure ours amortized themselves years ago from the savings in foam waste/server frustration.

                          There is no high point in the lines, however I just spoke to someone who seems to know his stuff and claims that if any moisture is getting into the bundle and "soaking" the insulation, you effectively lose your insulating power, because the line has to work that much harder to cool down a bunch of excess liquid around the lines. There is ample opportunity for moisture to get in to our bundle, and I'm really starting to wonder if that's it.

                          It also appears that the lines running at 31F isn't really adequate. My chiller can maintain the lines at around 27F if I turn it all the way down, and I'm wondering if those 4 degrees is enough to substantially reduce this issue. We'll find out over the next few days.

                          T

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Good point on the insulation. Your insulation needs to be AIRTIGHT. The accumulated water is less of a problem than the heat of fusion of water condensing within the insulation. The phase-change of vapor to liquid throws lots of calories into the equation.

                            When you get to sealing your insulation, this stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Armacell-TAP9...nsulation+Tape is your best friend. Armaflex Armacell insulating tape. With that and some good quality contact (rubber) adhesive, you'll be golden.

                            We run our line chiller at 29F. It gets us beer at about 35F, and out towers stay nice and sweaty. As I think I mentioned, we had a "properly" sized glycol chiller to start with, and it couldn't keep up. Now we run an over-sized chiller pack, and it's doing what it's supposed to do.
                            Last edited by TGTimm; 07-15-2016, 10:05 AM.
                            Timm Turrentine

                            Brewerywright,
                            Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                            Enterprise. Oregon.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                              Good point on the insulation. Your insulation needs to be AIRTIGHT. The accumulated water is less of a problem than the heat of fusion of water condensing within the insulation. The phase-change of vapor to liquid throws lots of calories into the equation.

                              When you get to sealing your insulation, this stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Armacell-TAP9...nsulation+Tape is your best friend. Armaflex Armacell insulating tape. With that and some good quality contact (rubber) adhesive, you'll be golden.

                              We run our line chiller at 29F. It gets us beer at about 35F, and out towers stay nice and sweaty. As I think I mentioned, we had a "properly" sized glycol chiller to start with, and it couldn't keep up. Now we run an over-sized chiller pack, and it's doing what it's supposed to do.

                              EDIT:
                              My tanks are at 34F, my beer pours at 37F. That's about the lowest I can get it, with the whole thing fully cooled. So we lose 3 degrees from tank to tap, and that's with my chiller going as low as it will go. The chiller has to work very hard to keep it within 3 degrees. Telltale that something is up, and there is nothing funky going on here (that I know of) besides the moisture. I need to look around and really find out if moisture is as devastating as this.

                              Thanks for all your help (and thanks all!)


                              T
                              Last edited by omearabros; 07-15-2016, 06:15 PM.

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