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  • lactic acid

    Need to lower my pH a bit. I just purchased a Milwaukee pH meter from Crosby and Baker (hope that's a good one). I never worked with lactic acid before. I've used CaSo4 in the past, but I can't justify adding anymore calcium to my water. Does anybody know (of course, I will have to grudgingly do this with the meter anyway, but it would be nice to have a ballpark figure) how much lactic acid it takes to lower the pH 1/10th of a point in 1 Bbl of water? My pH is currently 7.6.
    Last edited by mr.jay; 09-30-2006, 05:48 PM.

  • #2
    7.6 in the mash or 7.6 for the water. If the Water is 7.6 that's not too bad...in fact its good. It doesn't matter what the pH of the water is. It's the pH of the mash that is important.
    Larry Horwitz

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    • #3
      mash pH

      I have to agree with Larry, if your mash-in-water has a pH of 7.6; I would not add any acid. You have enough buffer compounds in your malt to get the mash pH where it should be, ~ 5.4 - 5.8.
      I'm sure you know the exact usage of Gypsum, but I post it again....

      Calcium Sulfate CaSO4*2 H2O (Gypsum)
      Concentration at 1 gram/gallon: 61.5 ppm Ca +2 147.4 ppm SO4 -2
      Effects: LOWERS pH !

      I would stay with Gypsum, not with any acid.

      Fred Scheer
      Last edited by Fred Scheer; 10-10-2006, 03:10 PM. Reason: forgot the title

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      • #4
        Lactic Acid

        7.6 isn't a bad pH for untreated brewing water. However, I've used both normal lactic acid and Sauergut (lactic acid produced by the homo-fermentative lactos on malt) with good results, and since the use of lactic acid is generally viewed as beneficial for the finished beer, I'd go with it. Also, the phosphatases from the malt, which help increase the buffering capacity of the mash, work best at a pH of 5.0 and a mash temps of 50 - 53C and are quickly denatured at around 60C and above, so if you're doing a single step infusion mash (with temp and pH well above both), it might be good to use a little lactic acid to get your pH down to around 5.3 - 5.5, especially if your water is already rich in calcium. Really, it depends upon your water; not only what the pH is, but what types of ions it has in it. And, yes, contrary to what some people may say, lactic acid will not make your beer taste like milk

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        • #5
          acid and such...........

          Mr.Jay:

          Forgot to mention the possibility of "Sauer Malz" (acidified malt) which you
          can purchase. Small amounts in your grain bill will help lower the pH;
          I like this more than the usage of any acids (no offense CRASSBRAUER)

          Fred

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          • #6
            Fred,

            I would use "Sauermalz" if I didn't have access to "Sauergut" (naturally produced lactic acid from malt). "Sauergut" should always be your first choice, simply because it has been proven to be advantageous in so many ways over other forms of acidification: it's very good for your yeast and very beneficial throughout the entire brewing process. (I even like to drink the stuff in the morning sometimes with my breakfast - sort of like malty grapefruit juice. So refreshing and nutritious! ) I think more breweries should devote a little space to producing "Sauergut", since it's pretty easily done.

            Failing that option, however, I'd use "Sauermalz" over plain lactic acid, as well. However, "Sauermalz" can be rather expensive. It depends upon your source and where you are, I guess. Also, lactic acid takes up a lot less space.

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            • #7
              Sauergut

              HI Crassbrauer:
              Do you make your own "Sauergut"?
              Can you give us a bit more details?

              I'm not so much concerned about less space taken up by lactic acid;
              I'm more concerned about SAFETY!

              Thanks,

              Fred

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Fred Scheer
                HI Crassbrauer:
                Do you make your own "Sauergut"?
                Can you give us a bit more details?

                Fred
                Yes, please post the details for making Sauergut. I have done many a sour mash for producing Kentucky Kommon beer, a beer indigenous to Louisville, KY.
                Cheers & I'm out!
                David R. Pierce
                NABC & Bank Street Brewhouse
                POB 343
                New Albany, IN 47151

                Comment


                • #9
                  For breweries with irregular brewing schedules, it’s probably too much trouble to try and maintain a culture, but I have seen plenty of relatively small breweries that produce lactic acid for brewing purposes. For those with irregular schedules or those that don't need to drop the pH of each brew (stouts, etc.), the acidified malt (“Sauermalz”) is the better option. Plain food-grade lactic acid is not allowed in Germany, but you can use it!

                  You grow “Sauergut” with homofermentative Lactobacillus amylolyticus at 48°C (they’ll grow up to 52°C; they make D-lactic acid). Most breweries have the tanks under their brewhouse. The temperature is critical, because if it drops below 48°C, then wild yeast will begin growing in it (a white powdery mold develops on the surface). Lactobacillus amylolyticus aren’t wort-spoilers because they don’t grow well below 30°C and don’t like hops.

                  You’ll need unhopped wort to grow them and a pure culture. First runnings thinned out to 10 – 12 % extract work well. If the pH drops below 3.5, they’ll begin to die. Therefore, you have to maintain the culture. It is mostly grown in a continuous process, so, as mentioned above, you need a regular brewing schedule in order to maintain it, but you can keep the lactic acid in cold storage (0 – 3°C) for up to three months. The culture itself can be maintained on a smaller scale in the lab and grown up again, or a fresh culture can be stored for up to a couple of months at 5 – 10°C.

                  If you’re going to have something built for this purpose (instead of doing it in warm corny kegs): one fermenter and a storage tank are necessary; two fermenters are better, though, and each tank needs a CO2 line as well as a carbonated or deoxygenated water line - a spray ball at the top would be good, too. (Of course these lactos need anaerobic conditions.) You need to leave some head space in the tanks. I have seen more basic set ups, which work fine.

                  Usually at a pH of 3.5 in the fermenter, 50% is taken out and sent to the storage tank and is replaced with thinned first runnings. This should raise the pH to above 4.0. The temperature on the storage tank doesn’t need to be maintained, just in the fermenters. The pH is too low for much else to happen in the storage tank (O2-free, too), so the lactos continue to ferment as the temperature drops in the storage tank and the pH drops to about 2.9. (Of course this kills them.) Because of the low pH and the acid content, cleaning is practically unnecessary.

                  Sauergut is up to 1.5 % lactic acid and has a pH around 2.9.

                  Amount you’ll need for each brew: around 5 to 15 liters of Sauergut for every 100 kg of malt.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks for the detailed methodology, Crassbrauer! It's always a pleasure to hear what you have to say, as I have great respect for the beers coming out of Germany. Unfortunatly, I do not have a steady brewing schedule. I would be interested in knowing what the detectable differences would be in brewing 2 identical beers that have been treated with different acids (one being Crassb. method, and the other being plain old lactic acid). I think for myself, because of space and time, a combination of CaSo4 and lactic acid may be my best bet. Perhaps this winter, when things slow down a bit for me, I will try the above method, just once, for future reference. When I first arrived at the brewery, nothing was done to treat the water, and beer was quite delicious. A few months later, I began using calcium sulphate, and I noticed a dramatic difference in my extraction efficiency, and a very slight (if not psycological) difference in flavor. Especially my golden ale. The malt flavor seemed more pronounced, more nutty as I originally intended. My customers are very pleased, yet still, I've tasted beer far better than mine, so I am always on a journey to improve what already works. It ain't broke, so I ain't gonna fix it, but I will NOT stop at improving it anyway I can!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Reducing pH with Acids

                      The generally held information for reduction of pH by Lactic acid is 58 grams of 100% Lactic (Rarely you will find it 100% - more typically it is 85% so adjust accordingly) per 100 Kg malt to reduce pH by 0.1 in Mash and 29 grams in the Kettle. Other information is given in Stephen Holle's (MBAA) book "Handbook of Basic Brewing Calculations".

                      I also have other papers dealing with the topic in depth. Historically Sulfuric, Phosphoric and even Hydrochloric (Muriatic) acids were used in preference to lactic and the anions from each acid impart their own flavor notes to the beer and lactic was always considered by many to be inferior. I would love to see a pilot project run with identical batches of beer but made using the four different acids and compare them organoleptically. Anyone up for the challenge?

                      On a similar note, David Pierce, BBC, L'ville, KY commented on KY Common Beer. Dr. Joe Power and I emulated (via spiking of a modern product) such a beer for Alltech once and we used very high doses of both lactic and acetic acid to get the flavor to where we thought it would likely represent (based on historical acidity values) a KY Common Beer. So it is not only lactic that plays a role in such sour-style beers.

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                      • #12
                        Let's say I wanted to brew a Berliner Weiss. To achieve the sour flavor, I can simply add acid to the mash or boil? To the boil makes a bit of sense, but seems too easy, and adding to much acid to the mash would push your pH down too much, which is not good, correct? I don't know the answer, so I guess I am trying to generate some discussion about this. I can't step mash, so I can't do a protien rest, etc., and have found it difficult to make good German wheat beers (based on what I've read and tasted comparitively) as a result. Would sour malt (acidulated malt) work well in this instance? How much should I use? I normally use about 1% of my grain bill to adjust my pH (with my water profile, this seems to do the trick), but it doesn't leave a sour taste in my beer (thankfully), but a wheat beer or lambic is different. Any thoughts?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          German wheat beers and lactic acid

                          German wheat beer falls into two general categories. The ones you've probably tried are Bavarian wheat beers, characterized by the flavor of specific top-fermenting yeast by-products pushed to the fore by the low hop rate and the large amount of dissolved CO2. These are beers of normal strength, i.e. around 5 % ABV. The only reason lactic acid would be added to them is to correct the pH of the mash or the boiling wort, i.e. only in the brewhouse. (Belgians don't really make anything like Bavarian wheat beer. Witbier could be considered similar, I guess, but the typical Witbier spiciness is achieved with herbs instead of yeast and unmalted wheat is used instead of wheat malt - this makes for a different animal.)

                          Berliner Weisse is a beer found only in Berlin (hence the name) and is "Schankbier", i.e. beer brewed from low extract wort. There is very little alcohol in Berliner Weisse. The lactic acid is a product of fermentation (post-brewhouse, i.e. not "Sauergut"). It cannot be added in the brewhouse, anyway, for a variety of reasons, especially in the large amounts found in Berliner Weisse. These beers could sort of be compared to Belgian lambic like Cantillion, in fact some of the Huguenots who fled oppression in northern France may have brought this manner of brewing to Berlin. Instead of an all-out free-for-all with microbes, you have yeast and lactos doing the job exclusively. The great advantage of sour beers is that they are less prone to infection, since the pH drops even lower than the standard 4.4ish of normal beer.

                          And by the way, as mentioned in the recent thread on mash-hopping, traditionally Berliner Weisse wort is not boiled. It is only brought up to a little above 80C and held there for a while (just enough to kill off those unwanted microbes; protein coagulation, etc., etc. isn't as important for this style).
                          Last edited by crassbrauer; 10-17-2006, 06:07 PM.

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                          • #14
                            "Sauermalz"

                            I forgot to answer your question about how much Sauermalz to add to your mash. The rule of thumb for what you can get over here is 2,9 kg per 100 kg malt in order to lower the pH by 0.1.

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