Single Vessel Brewhouse?

[jduke]

Good day!

5bbl brewery with taproom in planning here. We are planning a brewery on a tight budget with primarily on premise sales in a 4100 ft2 retail friendly location. I'm really wanting to emphasize variety and freshness, so that's part of the reason for selecting 5bbls to start. We are planning with an eye towards double batching into 10bbl fermenters as the need arises, though.

As I'm weighing the myriad of equipment options out there, I ran across the Colorado Brewing Systems single vessel 5bbl system here:

http://www.cobrewingsystems.com/collections/complete-brewing-systems/products/new-5bbl-micro-brewer-single

This would use 1 (maybe 2) instant hot water heaters for sparge/HLT. Reported efficiency is actually on par - 85% mash efficiency and 75% brewhouse efficiency from a brewer I talked to who is already using the prototype. A plate chiller and ChuggerMAX pump are included.

My question is this - what are the practical disadvantages to this system? I can get a Chinese 3 vessel brewhouse (direct fired boil, electric HLT) but much more aftermarket work will have to be done - install burner, build a controller, no hard piping, etc... Not an insurmountable task by any means, but what would be the advantage to it?

Note - We're most likely getting the FV's and BBT's from China anyway, so shipping cost is partially negated by the fact that we're paying for a container already.

Cheers, and thanks for any input!

[honkey]

Good day!

5bbl brewery with taproom in planning here. We are planning a brewery on a tight budget with primarily on premise sales in a 4100 ft2 retail friendly location. I'm really wanting to emphasize variety and freshness, so that's part of the reason for selecting 5bbls to start. We are planning with an eye towards double batching into 10bbl fermenters as the need arises, though.

As I'm weighing the myriad of equipment options out there, I ran across the Colorado Brewing Systems single vessel 5bbl system here:

http://www.cobrewingsystems.com/collections/complete-brewing-systems/products/new-5bbl-micro-brewer-single

This would use 1 (maybe 2) instant hot water heaters for sparge/HLT. Reported efficiency is actually on par - 85% mash efficiency and 75% brewhouse efficiency from a brewer I talked to who is already using the prototype. A plate chiller and ChuggerMAX pump are included.

My question is this - what are the practical disadvantages to this system? I can get a Chinese 3 vessel brewhouse (direct fired boil, electric HLT) but much more aftermarket work will have to be done - install burner, build a controller, no hard piping, etc... Not an insurmountable task by any means, but what would be the advantage to it?

Note - We're most likely getting the FV's and BBT's from China anyway, so shipping cost is partially negated by the fact that we're paying for a container already.

Cheers, and thanks for any input!

I'd bet you'd be happier with modified dairy equipment than either one of those. Do a quick search for dairy tanks on here and a guy named James from Wisconsin has them listed. I bought a hopback from him once and was pleased. Looking at his other equipment, it appears to be nice.

[TonyT]

I think you will get really tired of having to completely finish your first batch, knocked out into the fermenter, before you can even mash in your second batch. That seems like it would make for a very long multiple batch brew day. I have a hard time believing their website that says you can do a double batch in 8-10 hours...

[jebzter]

Its been said already, 8-10 hours is probably not likely since you have to completely finish one batch before starting the second, where on a multi-vessel system you can start the second batch while the boil is still going. The other thing that I see is that this system is electric, nearly 16kVa. That is a lot of power, almost as much as one of my glycol chillers uses, and I can tell you that it is expensive. If you have natural gas available, I wouldn't think twice about using it, the cost difference is astounding, it will pay for itself. We are a 10bbl brewery with tap room, my electric bill is nearly 5 times what my gas bill is. Every kW that you can use as gas is a big savings. Can't say enough about not going electric for your heating needs.

[jduke]

Just to follow up, here's what I've been told. Hope the short mash to boil time and short knockout times are accurate!

"Fill kettle: 20 minutes (at mash temps since we fill from a tankless heater)
Add grain: 10 minutes
Start mash cycle: 60 minutes
raise to mashout temp: 10 minutes
Mashout rest: 10 minutes
Raise basket and start going to boil: 15 minutes (15 minutes to go from 168 to boil)
Boil 60 minutes
Whirlpool: 15 minutes
Transfer to fermenter: 15 minutes (varies by ground water temp)

So that is just over 3.5 hours but obviously you might have a little time between steps to have a beer or two, but 4 hours is a very reasonable expectation on our systems."

[jebzter]

Is there a vorlauf? Seems to me that you will have a pretty hazy/starchy beer if no vorlauf, just let the basket drain. Probably wont have a great extract without some kind of sparging either.

[mmussen]

I hate to say it but a lot of the times quoted there seem very optimistic to me.
15 min to bring 5+ bbl of wort from 170 to a boil? I highly doubt it... I also think they're quoted time to chill the beer on the way out is quite low (most breweries aim for 30-45 min).

And as mentioned above, without sparging the efficiencies are not going to be pretty.
I'd also be curious as to how much grain the system can handle and where the gravities the system can brew top out.

[jduke]

You're recirculating the entire mash, so I don't think clarity is an issue from what I've heard.

I certainly should check grain limits, that's an excellent point I should've already asked, thanks. There is a removable sparge arm included, you can sparge directly from the tankless hot water heater.

I agree on these looking like some optimistic times.

[jduke]

I'd also be curious as to how much grain the system can handle and where the gravities the system can brew top out.

650lbs of grain I'm told, FYI, though I think that would be an overly thick mash. Seems like a plenty big enough beer is possible though, by sparging to get volume back up.

[mrsweet2u]

Have you checked out Brewha? It's similar to what you're looking at.

https://brewhaequipment.com/products/brewha-biac-all-in-one-for-nano-and-micro-breweries

[beerme]

such a bad idea

[Bitter Brewer]

So did you purchase CO Brew system?

You're recirculating the entire mash, so I don't think clarity is an issue from what I've heard.

I certainly should check grain limits, that's an excellent point I should've already asked, thanks. There is a removable sparge arm included, you can sparge directly from the tankless hot water heater.

I agree on these looking like some optimistic times.

What did you end up purchasing? how is it going?