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  • Bottle co2 issues...

    I'm looking to improve our bottle quality, and the first thing on my list is co2 levels.

    Some nitty-gritty...

    We rack straight off of a bright tank at about 1 bar of pressure, or 14.5 psi, usually at 4-8 degrees C depending on ale or lager, and it runs between maybe 7 to 10 meters of line depending on which bright tank its coming from. Co2 is usually natural from the primary fermentation, though we occasionally force carbonate when a mistake is made and we're under the 1 bar mark.

    We're using a 2 head filler from a Japanese company called ROOTS, so likely no help there for good info...

    Our bottles go through a flash pasteurization process for about 10 minutes at 62 C.

    So, when first poured, we get an ample head which dissapates quickly and has little persistent co2 activity. After 5 minutes, the beer is nearly flat, though a stir will rouse up some bubbles. I'd like to keep the rising carbonation more presistent and continuous.

    Thoughts?
    www.devilcraft.jp
    www.japanbeertimes.com

  • #2
    you should have a co2 tester on the bbt, could it be that your pasteurization method is knocking out the co2?

    There is nothing worse than bottling flat beer.
    www.Lervig.no

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    • #3
      what is your targeted CO2 volume in the beers?

      14.5 psi, at 4C gives you max of 2.75 volume of CO2 dissolved in beer, but at 8C gives you 2.41 volume of CO2 dissolved in beer.

      You need to find out the equilibrium points at your desired CO2 level-- you want to keep the beer 1) colder than the temperature limit or 2) under pressure higher than the limit-- at all time, to keep the CO2 staying in beer.


      That said, think the whole path the beer has to travel, from BBT to bottle...
      The 7-10m beer line have restrictions-- depending on the material and inner diameter, at the end the beer may be under very low pressure. For each foot elevation the beer has to travel, it also takes 0.5 psi. If the applied pressure - total restriction of the system results an end pressure lower than the pressure needed to keep CO2 in solution, you will lose CO2.
      Also, if the beer gets warmed during this path, it will shift the pressure equilibrium...


      I take it your BBT will not take pressure much higher than 1 bar. You can try to reduce the restrictions of the beer lines by using larger tubing or Polyethylene tubing instead of vinyl tubing. You can also try using a pump that gives the beer an extra 20~30 psi to push the beer without affecting the CO2 solubility (you should keep the pump as close to your BBT as possible). a draft line beer pump may be enough for your 2 head filler.



      "Our bottles go through a flash pasteurization process", do you mean tunnel pasteurization, that you fill and cap the bottle and then heat the whole thing in hot water bath? flash pasteurization usually refers to inline pasteurization through a heat exchanger, which, if not done properly with pressure control, will result flat beer.
      But once you cap the bottle, heating the bottle really shouldn't matter-- It's a closed system, and increase the temperature will also increase the internal pressure, therefore CO2 stays in beer. UNLESS, your cap doesn't provide a good seal! (which you should also check!)

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      • #4
        Thanks for the responses,

        We crank out roughly 200 bottles an hour, not bad speed given the equipment I suppose, but likely not fast enough to keep the beer from gaining a degree or two in the line. We are just using vinyl tubing, so maybe some insulated tubing can help out here...

        I'd have to check out our bright tanks to see what they're spec'd out to, but I imagine we can do more than the 1 bar we're doing now. I'm wondering if we're just going off some original specifications that were put out when the brewery first opened in 2001, and it doesn't take other things into consideration, just the 1 bar giving the 2.75 at 4C.

        Does anyone have a meter with pressure and temperature with other variables, or point me towards a book/source that might show factors to consider?

        I shouldn't have said we use flash pasteurization, we just do hot water immersion, then flush the tank with cooler water until we get the dummy bottle's internal temp below 25C or so, then we remove the cases and let them dry a bit, then into the cold room until time for labeling.

        I'm also curious as to what kind of co2 loss we might experience with our plate filter system. One thing I've noticed is that our carbonation on our filtered products has much bigger bubbles, and our unfiltered products are much more small and fine...and a bit more persistent. I'm imagining that the plate filter is working like a sparkler on a beer engine, though I could just be blowing out hot air... would some partial force carbonation in the bright tank help out with this issue on the filtered products?
        www.devilcraft.jp
        www.japanbeertimes.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Check out Zahm and Nagel for CO2 testers.
          Zahm & Nagel, crafting 100% American-made products for the brewing and soda industries since 1908. Producing carbonating and quality control equipment...

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          • #6
            You can try getting some nice draft beer trunk lines, low restriction value with glycol lines and insulation. again, for your purpose, I would recommend larger diameter ones.
            Also, you might find it easier to bottle the beer really cold, doesn't matter which beer you are bottling. it keeps the CO2 stay in for sure.


            "carbonation on our filtered products has much bigger bubbles, and our unfiltered products are much more small and fine"

            That can be due to filtration stripping off proteins. in general, the more "stuff" you have in the beer, the finer the bubbles... but we don't always want that much "stuff".

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