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kww
06-24-2007, 06:17 PM
My business plan continues to grow, and I have to find an economical vehicle for export to Aruba, Columbia, Curacao, and Venezuela . I really don't want to get in the business of chasing kegs internationally, which made me look at http://www.beerinbox.net/index_e.htm . Aside from the fact that I can't think of a way to "box condition" beer, has anyone got any opinions about or experience with these things? Any thoughts on their process of vacuum extracting CO2 from the beer prior to packaging?

jarviw
06-25-2007, 10:45 AM
looks like a cool idea...
there is one brewery in Germany using (per the website), you think you can get some info from them?

how are you going to decrease the CO2 level to 0.5 v/v though? heat your beer to 28C or apply negative pressure to your tanks? may be more practical for ale brewer...

what I am curious is how much the carbonator cost... may be a little more troublesome for the bars to carry your beer.

beertje46
06-25-2007, 10:56 AM
looks like a cool idea...
there is one brewery in Germany using (per the website), you think you can get some info from them?

how are you going to decrease the CO2 level to 0.5 v/v though?

From the web-site:

2. Decarbonisation of Bag-In-Box beers

Prior to bottling, the carbon dioxide (CO2) produced during fermentation/storage is reduced to ca. 1g/ltr. At this concentration the beer in the containers can heat up to 80C (southern countries), without the bag bursting. We use a vacuum pump for decarbonisation.

jarviw
06-25-2007, 11:42 AM
Thanks David for quoting the website...

if we are talking about lagers, say the beer is fermented at 50F (10C), with no pressure applied to the tank at all, it will have roughly 1.1 volume (2.2g/l) of CO2 dissolved in the beer. we will then need about -8 psi of vacuum applied to the tank. Even though I think most tank can take it, I just don't like this idea...

Alternatively, if we heat the beer to 84F (29C), we can also achieve 1g/l CO2. But unless you are brewing some crazy Belgian beer, I don't know anyone let their beer go that warm intentionally.

Better yet, a combination of both... increase temp, which allows for lesser negative pressure.

but alas. I don't think any of us will ever want the beer get heated over 40C, not mentioning the 80C they are quoting... (I think their point is, their container can stand 35 psi of pressure with 0.5v/v CO2, at 80C).
if the beer stays cool the whole time (ideally), perhaps it really wouldn't matter how much CO2 is dissolved in the beer.

I wonder what MicroMatic people think about this?? after all this is a dispensing issue.

kww
06-25-2007, 12:46 PM
My understanding is that the vacuum exposure occurs inside their machine, not the entire tank at once.

JoeV
06-25-2007, 09:21 PM
Hmm wow, well if we are going this far why not just mix hopped malt extract with ethanol, add water and carbonation at the customer site...hmm instant beer from a box!!! Just like soda pop. Well just so you know I thought of it first so send me the royalty check. I can see the coaster now..."thank you for purchasing this processed, packaged pasteurized alcoholic malt beverage product....the velveeta of beer.

kww
06-26-2007, 06:26 AM
I don't quite see the reason for your of negativism there. It keeps you from bottling or keg conditioning, but it doesn't seem much different from any forced carbonising techniques ... just delays it until later in the delivery cycle.

JoeV
06-26-2007, 10:39 PM
Well, consumer perception is pretty important. I am a consumer of beer and I have a negative perception of "beer in a box". Just as I do of wine in a box, unfounded or not. So to give the originator of this thread a balanced view of the topic for thier business plan I expressed my views on the matter.

kww
06-27-2007, 12:30 PM
I don't think the average consumer would even realize the difference between a CO2 tank pressurizing a keg to force beer to flow (and keeping the CO2 level up at the same time), vs. a gravity flow where the CO2 mixer is purely keeping the level up. The kegged beer I serve in the bar is hidden inside a refrigerator, which is where most kegs are kept.

dick murton
06-27-2007, 01:45 PM
Whether you send beer in conventional kegs or a bag in a box system, you will need to keep the beer cold throughout the trip, from the time it leaves your brewery to the point of dispense.

If you have the smallest amount of yeast (or bacteria) in the beer, these will grow in the warm conditions (say 30 C for a couple of weeks), causing off flavours and haze, + CO2 - so it is likely to be undrinkable.

If you sterile filter it, then if you allow it to get up to those temperatures, you are still going to develop off flavours and hazes.

If you allow it to get up to 80 C, ok, you have pasteurised it - but I dread to think what it will taste like.

As previously mentioned, the point about them mentioning 80 C is to show how strong the bags are, not to indicate your beer will still be fit for consumption.

They apear to be providing, no doubt at some considerable cost, a system to decarbonate prior to filling, and then recarbonate on dispense. The question is whether this is cheaper than specially purchased one trip kegs

Moonlight
06-27-2007, 11:21 PM
I am not sure why the beer would need to be de-carbonated if you would just not carbonate it in the first place.
A cellarstream could likely re-carbonate and could even nitrogenate if you wanted.
I think it is kinda fascinating. I hate losing kegs and my beer would cost less if I didn't have to keep buying kegs. As for your customers, money does have an influence.

swiftvin
07-19-2007, 11:57 PM
Have you considered looking at the One-Way keg? It may be an option for you.
www.ecokeg.com.tw

Cheers!

kww
07-20-2007, 12:24 PM
Looked at it, and wasn't convinced. To me, the big advantage of BIAB is that the empties are shipped flat. The one-way-keg still has me importing containers of empty kegs simply to re-export containers of full kegs ... nearly twice the shipping costs.