Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Frustrated U-Brew Owner

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Frustrated U-Brew Owner

    Hello,

    Well let me start off by telling you my situation. Last year I purchased a failing U-Brew operation in SW Ontario. I purchased it because I saw potential in reducing the overhead and improving product quaility. I've made numorous adjustments to the systems and have come out with a very clean tasting extract beers. However I cannot seem to reproduce or may not be able to reproduce that one flavour that most comercial beers have. It's hard to describe but I would say it's almost a skunky aroma and inital taste that says I'm beer. When I started out I knew nothing about brewing beer, and after the old owner abandoned me just two weeks after the purchase I've been on my own. I have been doing alot of reading over the past months, and even designed a prototype mash tun that fits inside my 20 gal kettles. Currently I bought a mash tun and have replaced one of my kettles with it. I'm still waiting for a gas valve and some control parts, but it should be ready to go by the end of this month. I thought if I post some of my process parameters, someone can tell me if my process is okay I have the correct settings.

    On extract beers that contain specialty grains I proceed as follows:

    1. Steep the grains in a grain bag in 5 gals of water at 155 F for 1 hour.
    2. Top up kettle to 15 gals and raise temperature to 195 F.
    3. Add VLM extract (80% 2Row - 20% 6Row) and adjunct.
    4. Raise temp to 209 F and begin kettle break.
    5. Allow foam to reach top of kettle, turn of heat and allow to settle. I do this four times. Then remove and clumps of foam from the top.
    6. Set temp to rolling boil (measured at 210 F)
    7. Take 1/2 cup wort sample for yeast started and cool to 70 F
    8. Add in boiling hops and set my timers.
    9. At 30 mins add mid hops
    10. At 45 mins add worfloc tab.
    11. At 50 mins mix yeast with starter. (coopers or nottingham ale yeast)
    12. At 55 mins add finishing hops
    13. At 1 hour turn off heat and remove wort to fermetation keg at 68 F.
    14. Pitch yeast while filling keg. Wort is airated by filling process only.
    15. Keg gets sealed, airlocked and moved to fermentation room at 60 F, where it sits for 1 week. Wort temp is usally 68 F.
    16. On the 8th day 150ml of issinglass is added and dispursed then the keg is moved to the beer aging room at 33 F.
    17. After 6 days of aging the beer is filtered into a 60L keg and forced carbonated.
    18. The next day the customer bottles.

    One thing I am not clear on is the kettle break. From my understanding this is also called a protein break that breaks the chains up. But I don't know why this needs to occur other than it gives me steril wort for yeast starter.

    My buisness has improved since we started but the damage done by previous administration is greater than I thought. The only way to suceed is produce beers that are comparable to comerical brands. A taste that still seams to alude me, and one of the reasons I'm putting in a small all grain system.

    I've been thinking about raising my aging room temperature to put me in lagering range and trying some lagers. Can anyone tell me how this will affect the aging on the ale beers.

    Of course any help is appriciated.


    Best regards,
    Dave
    MCBC

  • #2
    I'd like to suggest you talk with the guys from CABA:


    They're passionate brewers with the knowlege you need to make your beer better and they're considerably closer to you. Maybe you can dangle a few batches for them to get down to actually do a brew day with you.

    You're on track with starting to add at least a portion of your wort as whole grain. As for the skunky flavour, leave a bottle of your beer out in the sun for a day, then try it. It's a flavour defect and not at all desireable in beer.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think the "skunky" aroma you are refering to is hops. Euro and czech hops have a distinct aroma, although not skunky, they can be perceived as skunky if the beer is not handled properly. Try some saaz as a aroma hop to see if this is the aroma you are looking for. I agree with the previous poster, skunky does not say to professional brewers, "I am beer". It says "I am flawed"
      Tim Butler

      Empire Brewing Co.
      Syracuse, NY

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Rudge75,

        I'll give them a shout. As for the skunky characteristic, I've had beer of mine get light struck and it's not exactly what I'm trying to describe. Currently most of my all extract beers come off tasting fruity or flowery. I can understand this because they contain cascade or hallertaur and possibly the ale yeast. But it seems it might be an aging problem. It concerns me that we only run a two week schedule. Co2 production usally ceases on day 7, and I move to cold room on day 8. I don't beleive the beer is at all estery, but I am not sure if 24 hours is enough time to remove the esters and possibly other byproducts. I am finding that there are so many varibles, it's hard to run tests one at a time to have good results, especially when I also have to run customers beer and do not want to change parameters that will effect them.

        Thanks for the reply.

        MCBC
        Dave

        Comment


        • #5
          Just some general comments...

          However I cannot seem to reproduce or may not be able to reproduce that one flavour that most comercial beers have. It's hard to describe but I would say it's almost a skunky aroma and inital taste that says I'm beer.

          ** extract does have a definate taste to it in some cases and suppliers.So dont count this out. Same for different yeast varieties.

          5. Allow foam to reach top of kettle, turn of heat and allow to settle. I do this four times. Then remove and clumps of foam from the top.

          ** rather than having to turn off, can you restrict the steam to the kettle once at copper-up?

          Also, can you add your hops earlier as they will help lessen boil overs.

          16. On the 8th day 150ml of issinglass is added and dispursed then the keg is moved to the beer aging room at 33 F.

          ** as your filtering is this step necessary?


          One thing I am not clear on is the kettle break. From my understanding this is also called a protein break that breaks the chains up. But I don't know why this needs to occur other than it gives me steril wort for yeast starter.

          ** yes, the kettle break is based around this priciple. The heat gives sterile wort, not the break though. The break will add to haze in the beer downstream.

          I've been thinking about raising my aging room temperature to put me in lagering range and trying some lagers. Can anyone tell me how this will affect the aging on the ale beers.

          ** not sure what you are seeking here. Ale and Lager ferments are at different temp ranges, and all can be cellared at close to zero degree's celcius. (30 degree farheheigh??). Time will increase for lager ferment and the yeast is generally less floculant. Cellaring is fine, fermentation is a different kettle of fish.

          Scotty
          Head Brewer Rocks Brewing Co.
          Sydney, Aust
          scotty@rocksbrewing.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Scotty,

            I agree with what you say about different malt extracts from different suppliers. I changed my lager malt to VLM (very light malt) two months ago and it has given a cleaner finish. Also I've been protecting all my ingredients to ensure freshness. I was just reading that using cane sugar or dextrose can effect the taste of the beer and to substitue with DME or LME. I am going to run a side by side comparison using glucose in one and all LME in the other.

            My kettles are gas fired, I can reduce to a minimum setting, but the foam only takes 10 seconds to settle, then I go back to maximum heat.

            I did stop using isingglass for about 5 months, but when I changed my LME to VLM, I began seeing cloudyness and my filters plugged easily, so I started using it again and it corrected the problem. Why this occured I don't know.

            What I was getting at with raising my aging room (cellering) temp is that my fermentation room runs at 60 F, too warm for lager. I only have two temperature controled rooms for beer in the store, so the alternitive to running both styles is raise my cellering temp, which may not be such a good idea.

            I think Tim may have hit on the flavour that I am looking for. Although I am still developing my taste buds, the sampling I did was on a Canadian beer called Moosehead. It does have sort of Pilsner aroma and taste that saaz would have, and it has a base of Pale malt with a hint of Pilsner malt and corn. I ran this recipe using my all grain prototype, but used tettnang and hallertaur. The base flavours were simalar, but the aroma and hop flavour were completly different. When I get my mash tun operational, I will rerun the recipe with saaz.

            Best regards,

            MCBC
            Dave

            Comment


            • #7
              Like SCMorgan said, malt extract brewing can be tough, many extracts give a characteristic "extract" flavor that can be off-putting.

              If I might make a recommendation, I brewed beer for a year on an extract system, and found that malt extract from California Concentrate was exceptionally good. Not a hint of "extract" flavor. I used the pale and the wheat extracts.

              Cheers, Tim

              Comment


              • #8
                Be wary of beers packaged in green bottles. Moosehead comes this way, and anytime i have sampled this beer it has been skunked. It hurts that some people think this is the way beer is supposed to taste. The same can be said for heineken, almost always skunked in a bottle. I have traveled to The Netherlands, and tasted it the way it should be, and it is a great beer. Clean, crisp, a slight hop character, hint of yeastyness, mmmm wish i was there now. Anyway, if people want Moosehead, why not buy it instead of trying to recreate it? If you must brew it, I'm glad you are goingt to try the saaz to get he profile you are looking for, just keep it out of a green bottle.
                Tim Butler

                Empire Brewing Co.
                Syracuse, NY

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by NYSBrewer
                  Be wary of beers packaged in green bottles. Moosehead comes this way, and anytime i have sampled this beer it has been skunked. It hurts that some people think this is the way beer is supposed to taste. The same can be said for heineken, almost always skunked in a bottle. I have traveled to The Netherlands, and tasted it the way it should be, and it is a great beer. Clean, crisp, a slight hop character, hint of yeastyness, mmmm wish i was there now. Anyway, if people want Moosehead, why not buy it instead of trying to recreate it? If you must brew it, I'm glad you are goingt to try the saaz to get he profile you are looking for, just keep it out of a green bottle.

                  Thanks Tim,

                  Yes I agree, freshly made beer is best, my problem is customers expect my beer to taste like commerical beer, and when they don't get it, they are disappointed. I live in a small town and word of mouth is everything. In order to succeed I need to have the best quality I can get with the equipment and supplies I have. I look at it this way, cleanlyness, measurement, time, temperature, water quality, ingredients quality & freshness. As long as I have these things in check, I have quality. But I am going on what I think is right just from my reading and minimal experience, so I am not positive that all these items are in check, I can only do my best.

                  Best regards,

                  MCBC
                  Dave

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Some more input

                    Sounds like you have some overproduction of esters (floral and fruity characters). Some papers have been published showing that when using adjunct that is high in glucose can result in the over-production of esters giving a poorly balanced product similar to what you have described. What type of adjunct are you using along with your VLB extract?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mckellar
                      Sounds like you have some overproduction of esters (floral and fruity characters). Some papers have been published showing that when using adjunct that is high in glucose can result in the over-production of esters giving a poorly balanced product similar to what you have described. What type of adjunct are you using along with your VLB extract?

                      Hi mckellar,

                      I am using a Hi Malt Glucose as a adjunct. The original Lager 80/20 malt extract I was using also contained 20 % glucose. That's why I switched to VLM, to lower the glucose levels by 20%. It did make a difference. The other day a home brewer I know, who has exquisite taste buds, sampled some my beers. He tells me he cannot detect any esters, or by products, where as before the change he could. I have put some thought into changing from glucose to dextrose as a adjunct. Any advice is appreciated.

                      Best regards,

                      MCBC
                      Dave

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hard to make ale taste like a lager

                        I think you're going to continue to have trouble trying to imitate Canadian commercial lagers, such as your Blue or Canadian, especially if you continue with your ale recipe. Making an ale taste like a bland lager is a tough bill. Although lagering will take a longer and colder fermentation, as said before, this may help in trying to match their character.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mckellar
                          I think you're going to continue to have trouble trying to imitate Canadian commercial lagers, such as your Blue or Canadian, especially if you continue with your ale recipe. Making an ale taste like a bland lager is a tough bill. Although lagering will take a longer and colder fermentation, as said before, this may help in trying to match their character.

                          Unfortunatly my refrigeration unit in my fermantation room will only go down to 58 F, the system was changed before my time with an sub standard unit. I want to try running some lagers, what if I ferment in my cellering room at 33 F. Or is this too cold.

                          Best regards,

                          MCBC
                          Dave

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MCBC
                            I have put some thought into changing from glucose to dextrose as a adjunct. Any advice is appreciated.
                            I would drop adjuncts entirely. As I mentioned above, I got really good results from the California Concentrate extract. I used no non-malt sugars. There's really no reason to ever use glucose (in particular) or any non-malt sugars...

                            Cheers, Tim

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MCBC
                              Unfortunatly my refrigeration unit in my fermantation room will only go down to 58 F, the system was changed before my time with an sub standard unit. I want to try running some lagers, what if I ferment in my cellering room at 33 F. Or is this too cold.
                              If you can't do true lager temp and have to stick with ale yeasts, I recommend White Labs 029 Kolsch Yeast -- Takes some time to mature (maybe one extra week), high attenuation (for your clean and light lager taste), fairly high flocculation, and pretty dominant sulfury nose that's similar to a lager.

                              I was fairly content with this yeast.

                              and yes -- listen to everyone here, use all malt already!
                              If you want the light profile of commercial lagers, shoot for high attenuation and lower original (and final) gravity. Mash at lower temperatures. Most commercial lights are at ~4.7% ABV range.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X