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How much power do I need to run six 6000k elements?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by jebzter View Post
    if it takes 10+ hours to turn 1 batch from start to finish, youre doing it wrong. Take a look at your processes and find out where your choke points are. We turn 2 in 10 hours, and thats pretty standard with a 2 vessel system and an HLT
    I'm talking about the complete brew day including measuring out/grinding grain and cleanup with 2 people. I can see where we could shave an hour or 2 off if we had a dedicated brew area we didnt have to clean up before we open due to our equipment being on display in the tasting room and if skipped the step mashing and different rests as some do but hey theres more than one way to skin a cat. neither is "wrong", They just produce different outcomes. I should add that I was making a point by estimating on the high end with a more complex beer.. we do have some (blond ale for example) which take considerable less time due to simplicity. I also fully understand the time that can be saved by brewing a second time without cleaning equipment and heating while the first batch is still boiling. My point was its still makes for a long day that for a tasting room of 30 people I just dont see the sustained need to do myself unless you have a very limited time frame to brew beer but everyone's situation is different I guess and if you sell a lot of growlers, plan to distribute or have a restaurant thats going to draw a lot of people in off hours you may need to brew back to back.. I just didnt want the OP to end up spending a huge amount of money for something he may never end up really doing at his current location.

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    • #17
      You may even want to consider 4 smaller elements something like these vs 3 larger ones depending on how your kettles are set up.
      https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dernord-Wat...MAAOSwldRdaegw
      ... This could give you more flexibility depending on your needs as well.

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      • #18
        You are 100% correct, there's lots of ways to get things done. Given that this is a business, and businesses need to be efficient with how they spend their money, the least amount of time to produce the highest quality beer would be the best process, especially since on these small systems, labor is definitely your highest cost item per bbl of beer. Just my 2 cents.
        Originally posted by augiedoggy View Post
        I'm talking about the complete brew day including measuring out/grinding grain and cleanup with 2 people. I can see where we could shave an hour or 2 off if we had a dedicated brew area we didnt have to clean up before we open due to our equipment being on display in the tasting room and if skipped the step mashing and different rests as some do but hey theres more than one way to skin a cat. neither is "wrong", They just produce different outcomes. I should add that I was making a point by estimating on the high end with a more complex beer.. we do have some (blond ale for example) which take considerable less time due to simplicity. I also fully understand the time that can be saved by brewing a second time without cleaning equipment and heating while the first batch is still boiling. My point was its still makes for a long day that for a tasting room of 30 people I just dont see the sustained need to do myself unless you have a very limited time frame to brew beer but everyone's situation is different I guess and if you sell a lot of growlers, plan to distribute or have a restaurant thats going to draw a lot of people in off hours you may need to brew back to back.. I just didnt want the OP to end up spending a huge amount of money for something he may never end up really doing at his current location.

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        • #19
          Per cost and time I'm going with upgrading to a 200amp panel. Should be able to run everything off that.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Jay Newbie View Post
            Per cost and time I'm going with upgrading to a 200amp panel. Should be able to run everything off that.
            Did you end up speaking with an electrician that has knowledge of 3 phase? or are you going with a 200a single phase upgrade? Just wondering.

            Ive been told by a couple different electricians that I would have been much better off with 3 phase but fail to understand why if the KWH billing is the same.
            Last edited by augiedoggy; 10-23-2019, 06:29 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by augiedoggy View Post
              Did you end up speaking with an electrician that has knowledge of 3 phase? or are you going with a 200a single phase upgrade? Just wondering.

              Ive been told by a couple different electricians that I would have been much better off with 3 phase but fail to understand why if the KWH billing is the same.
              Finally I actual had the Ele Eng out there. I def wanted the 3 phase but the lenth away I needed it was to far. Which meant an upgrade from the pole, lines, and so on. Was much more costly than upgrading the 100amp. Between permits and cost it wasn't in the cards.

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              • #22
                Understood... Just be sure to check with your power company since you may find the extra money invested up front might save thousands down the road.
                In our case with the 200amp service we are using so much electricity (just brewing once a week but we have an electric convection oven, chiller, coolers+AC) that we were bumped to the KWH plan which increased our electric bill by over 1/3 (about $2-300 extra a month).. with a 3ph service that may not have been the case.
                Last edited by augiedoggy; 10-24-2019, 06:30 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by augiedoggy View Post
                  so after doing some more reading on this I still could be wrong, but im fairly certain stout is incorrect on this info they gave you... a 6000w 3 phase element should draw 8.3a from each phase of power... a thats if your 100a 3ph feed has 100a PER phase of power not combined (which it should) think of it this way... an 1800w 120v element draws about 15 amps... now a 240v 1800w element only draws about 7.5 amps because the power is split between 2 poles of 120v power... a 3ph element is powered by 3 poles of 120v and split 3 ways which means it draws even less off each pole.

                  http://www.steambathbd.com/wp-conten...nts_text_1.jpg

                  here is another article explaining the difference but apprently it also matters whether the 3ph elements are "balanced" or "unbalanced"
                  http://waterheatertimer.org/3-phase-water-heater.html

                  One possibility is perhaps stout only sells single phase or unbalanced heating elements to go with their systems? Thats kind of what it seems like from what you have shared from them based upon what I understand so far.
                  I sourced my own elements and there are a large number of companies that supply both single and 3 phase brewing elements and control panels.
                  Hey Guys,

                  John from Brewmation here. We supply Stout with their heating elements and controls, and I just wanted to chime in on this to say that you are both correct. The information Stout provided is what we recommend, and the 6,000W elements are in fact wired across a single phase, not three phases. While the 6kW element could be 3 x 8.3A (3-phase) elements, as shown in the link, the total draw to achieve a 18kW would be the same either way. For a 90A supply, we typically set the interlock at 4 elements max (~66A max draw) to leave enough headroom for up to 4 pumps, sometimes a rake motor, plus an amp or two for the controls. Once boil is achieved, 2 elements is enough to keep it going or heat water in your HLT.

                  We do use three phases elements on our larger systems, but in the case of an 18k system, we would use single phase elements.

                  Sounds like the OP landed on 200A single phase, which will be plenty for this setup, but I wanted to provide a little more info on the power requirements that were listed.

                  Best,
                  John
                  Last edited by John@Brewmation; 11-19-2019, 11:57 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by John@Brewmation View Post
                    Hey Guys,

                    John from Brewmation here. We supply Stout with their heating elements and controls, and I just wanted to chime in on this to say that you are both correct. The information Stout provided is what we recommend, and the 6,000W elements are in fact wired across a single phase, not three phases. While the 6kW element could be 3 x 8.3A (3-phase) elements, as shown in the link, the total draw to achieve a 18kW would be the same either way. For a 90A supply, we typically set the interlock at 4 elements max (~66A max draw) to leave enough headroom for up to 4 pumps, sometimes a rake motor, plus an amp or two for the controls. Once boil is achieved, 2 elements is enough to keep it going or heat water in your HLT.

                    We do use three phases elements on our larger systems, but in the case of an 18k system, we would use single phase elements.

                    Sounds like the OP landed on 200A single phase, which will be plenty for this setup, but I wanted to provide a little more info on the power requirements that were listed.

                    Best,
                    John
                    Thank you for this Info John.
                    Just for reference.
                    In my 120a (2 60a gfci circuits) 3bbl panel I originally designed the panel so everything could be run off 100a and put 2 real time amp meters to show draw just in case but sized the system to handle 120a. Ive since upgraded to one of your 21" 6000w long straight elements in my rims which is used un conjunction with a 2400w 28" long element at 75% max power (pwm duty cycle) for my rims (This lets me heat my mash up to ten degrees in one pass at 5gpm with zero chance of scorching or denaturing enzymes) and even with the HLT heating 3 of my 4 5500w elements at 100% (I have a NO/NC relay to turn off one HLT element when the rims is turned on) and the rims pump and rims running im still under 100amp total.. when running my 3/4hp pump at the same time as my four BK 5500w elements I get the biggest draw at just under 105 amps. The only time this would ever need to be done is if I wanted to heat pbw while running CIP in that kettle...
                    Last edited by augiedoggy; 01-07-2020, 01:22 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by augiedoggy View Post
                      Thank you for this Info John.
                      Just for reference.
                      In my 120a (2 60a gfci circuits) 3bbl panel I originally designed the panel so everything could be run off 100a and put 2 real time amp meters to show draw just in case but sized the system to handle 120a. Ive since upgraded to one of your 21" 6000w long straight elements in my rims which is used un conjunction with a 2400w 28" long element at 75% max power (pwm duty cycle) for my rims (This lets me heat my mash up to ten degrees in one pass at 5gpm with zero chance of scorching or denaturing enzymes) and even with the HLT heating 3 of my 4 5500w elements at 100% (I have a NO/NC relay to turn off one HLT element when the rims is turned on) and the rims pump and rims running im still under 100amp total.. when running my 3/4hp pump at the same time as my four BK 5500w elements I get the biggest draw at just under 105 amps. The only time this would ever need to be done is if I wanted to heat pbw while running CIP in that kettle...
                      Thanks for sharing your setup...always like hearing the details of how each brewer might do things a little different.

                      Curious about your RIMS setup...you're running a 6k element and a 2.4k element? Are both at 75%, and are you running on 208 or 240? Reason I ask is that if you're running a 6k/240 element on 208, the actual wattage will only be 4.5k at 100%. I'm wondering if a 5.5k/208 element would do the trick. Just thinking out loud here.

                      BTW, took a look at the prosper brewing website and FB page...nice setup! I'll be out your way in May and will try to stop by!

                      -John

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                      • #26
                        Im running 240v. The reason im using the 6000w element is I was looking for the lowest watt density in my rims as well as the longest element as ive found longer contact time with the element on each pass results in better heating per pass. this also makes cleaning the element off much easier.
                        Honestly I dont need to run the 2400w cartridge heater also in the rims at 75% power but the software I use (brucontrol) for my brewing interface is setup to use the same pid for both elements. I used to have 2 2400w cartridge elements and I upgraded one to the 6000w element to increase the temp stepping ability when needed. I get 10 degrees rise per pass at 5gpm.

                        BTW John, The photos on your website are outdated or someone goofed up because I ordered the standard 1" threaded based 6k element and received a special triclamp based element I had to build an enclosure for.. I sent Debbie at brewmation a heads up but never heard anything back. It was a nice upgrade but I didnt know at the time and bought a triclamp enclosure for the standard threaded base I couldnt use.
                        Last edited by augiedoggy; 01-15-2020, 08:17 AM.

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