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Brites won't get below 36-38 F

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  • Brites won't get below 36-38 F

    I used to have a little beer line chiller and a 10 bbl jacketed brite. I had the brite directly plumbed to 3/8" line into the chiller and always got my cider (not beer) down to 32 F. It took a while, and when the ambient was hot, it took a while longer, but it worked perfectly for a dozen or more batches.

    Now I have the same 10 bbl brite and a new 40 bbl brite and a new 3 HP chiller and I cannot get either brite below 38 F. I have plumbed in a continuous loop with the first tank's jacket supply being the last return like illustrated in various how-tos here on the forums and elsewhere. And at the end of the loop, I have about 10 total feet of line.

    My chiller thermo reads 27 degrees and I'm not getting icing in the system anywhere (40% glycol). I don't know why I can't get either brite down to 32 F like I want. I've even tried turning off the loop (I installed a valve at the end of the loop) and forcing the pump to run through just a single jacket and still I'm stuck at 36. Any ideas?
    Nat West
    _____________________
    nat@reverendnatshardcider.com
    503-567-2221

  • #2
    I don't know if you can but try to calibrate the thermometers on your tanks and glycol chiller.

    Comment


    • #3
      I have two ideas

      1.
      Was the jacket bled properly?

      Since usually the inlet of the jacket is on the bottom and the outlet is on the top, When commissioning a new tank you should leave the outlet 'cracked' a bit to purge out air until you blow glycol to force out any air. Otherwise the air and glycol will perpetually fight for room in there and it can sometimes take quite some time to 'work' it out of the jacket and into the system. Also if you do this the air will then escape the jacket and reside at the highest point of your return line for eternity. Now most systems have a bleed valve installed there. Basically I'd check your system for trapped air. Air impedes coolant flow where ever it resides.

      2.
      Do you have sufficient flow?

      Again, crack open the outlet with the inlet valve closed. Now open it up just long enough to see it flowing well out of the outlet. This will bleed your air and prove the jacket is functioning properly. If you don't get an amazing amount of flow your jacket has issues or your process pump is undersized.
      Jason Raimondi
      Anderson Valley Brewing

      Comment


      • #4
        you may have icing in the tank. If ice forms around the jackets inside the tank it acts as an insulator and will not allow cider to chill further.

        Also, water with some alcohol in it is most dense around 36-38F. You might be seeing stratification inside the tank.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by biosonik View Post
          1. Was the jacket bled properly?
          2. Do you have sufficient flow?
          I tried both of these and everything seems copacetic. There was a massive amount of air moving from lines and jackets into the chiller's reservoir when I first plumbed it all up and I get good flow when I crack open the return (top) fitting on each jacket. (Three total jackets across two tanks.)

          LongLiveLagers, I can check to see if ice is forming inside the tank by just opening the top manway and looking, I assume. That actually sounds realistic since ONE TIME, just once, I saw the tank temp drop all the way to 32, but the next day, it was back up to 38. That's a curious thought. I wonder how I "fix" that problem? A higher setpoint on the chiller?

          Brewmaster2011, I will check the thermos on the chiller. I have already checked the thermos on the tanks and they are both correct.

          Thanks for the advice everyone.
          Nat West
          _____________________
          nat@reverendnatshardcider.com
          503-567-2221

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi,
            If you have two jackets totally you will need a 3/4"-1" pipe to get the requested flow you need to do the job.
            Please also consider to mix more water in because you said you had a 40% concentration of glycol and you should be on maximum 35%. For each extra percent of glycol you put in your fluid you loose heat transfer performance and you will also get a more viscious media that need more eneregy to pump.
            Also as people allready said you need to vent all high spots. You could put your ear to the pipe and if you hear a lot of noise you normally have air in the system.

            Cheers.

            Dan Strömberg
            Cooling Market Segment Manager
            __________________________________________________ ___________
            GF Piping Systems

            Georg Fischer LLC
            2882 Dow Avenue, Tustin, CA. 92780 US
            Tel: +1 714 368 4196 | Fax: +1 714 368 4197 | Mobile: +1 951 642 2339
            Dan.Stromberg@georgfischer.com, www.gfpiping.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Stratification?

              We had issues on our 10bbl fermenters where they wouldn't crash below 38, even with our 10 horse chiller. With a jacket above, and one below the thermowell we think what happens is that the top and bottom are cooling too fast and stratifying. The area in between, where the thermostat was reading, was isolated from the colder zones and wasn't mixing well due to the way beer's density goes up at 40 degrees.

              So we created a thing I call the Flop protocol, where we set it to 42 with the top jacket on full and the bottom jacket just barely cracked. Once it's hit 42, we crack the top valve and open the bottom full, then set it to 34. This seems to cause the beer to mix better, and I think what's happening is that we 'flop' the colder (and denser) top into the warmer bottom while having the cold on the bottom cools it as it mixes. That's the theory anyway Even if that's not why it works it still works for us. Of course, our 20bbl it doesn't seem to stratify and we just open both jackets and let 'er rip. So YMMV.
              Russell Everett
              Co-Founder / Head Brewer
              Bainbridge Island Brewing
              Bainbridge Island, WA

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bainbridge View Post
                We had issues on our 10bbl fermenters where they wouldn't crash below 38, even with our 10 horse chiller. With a jacket above, and one below the thermowell we think what happens is that the top and bottom are cooling too fast and stratifying. The area in between, where the thermostat was reading, was isolated from the colder zones and wasn't mixing well due to the way beer's density goes up at 40 degrees.

                So we created a thing I call the Flop protocol, where we set it to 42 with the top jacket on full and the bottom jacket just barely cracked. Once it's hit 42, we crack the top valve and open the bottom full, then set it to 34. This seems to cause the beer to mix better, and I think what's happening is that we 'flop' the colder (and denser) top into the warmer bottom while having the cold on the bottom cools it as it mixes. That's the theory anyway Even if that's not why it works it still works for us. Of course, our 20bbl it doesn't seem to stratify and we just open both jackets and let 'er rip. So YMMV.
                We do something similar to overcome the stratification. We can get our lagering temps down to 30^F. 10bbl and 20bbl tanks.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by revnatscider View Post
                  I used to have a little beer line chiller and a 10 bbl jacketed brite. I had the brite directly plumbed to 3/8" line into the chiller and always got my cider (not beer) down to 32 F. It took a while, and when the ambient was hot, it took a while longer, but it worked perfectly for a dozen or more batches.
                  I would also recommend checking your temp probes

                  Just did this on my brites and it explained a few things.

                  We have pt100 RTD's so it was reasonable easy to check with a multimeter (both at the tank and the panel) against a chart (easily found online). Our temp controllers have an input shift function so it was easy to adjust at the panel.

                  We have ten tanks currently and only one was accurate. eek! We averaged about 2.5 oF off the mark. Some times (depending on the gauge of wire and the length of run) the wire from the sensor to the panel will offer enough resistance to make the probe seem innaccurate. Thus the need to shift the input signal.

                  Pax.

                  Liam
                  Liam McKenna
                  www.yellowbellybrewery.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    good point Liam. I'd also add that squirting some thermal mastic in there really helped our probes read faster and more accurately. http://www.zorotools.com/g/00012558/k-G2052924?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc &utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword}&gc lid=CJ3fita4kbgCFQ9dQgod-jYAzg It's just a messy pain to get in the thermowell.
                    Russell Everett
                    Co-Founder / Head Brewer
                    Bainbridge Island Brewing
                    Bainbridge Island, WA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bainbridge View Post
                      I'd also add that squirting some thermal mastic in there really helped our probes read faster and more accurately. It's just a messy pain to get in the thermowell.
                      I have used a honey bottle with a straw pressed on the end for similar situations with much success.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thermo Heat transfer

                        Originally posted by OneMoreBrewer View Post
                        I have used a honey bottle with a straw pressed on the end for similar situations with much success.
                        This is just a note on using the thermo well heat transfer paste. Once you fill the well and start threading the RTD into the well. Check the inside of the tank. If there is even a pin hole, the paste will push though an into the inside of the tank. The pressure that is put on the paste when tightening the RTD is quite high and can force the paste through the hole.

                        It happened to me so I thought I'd share. BTW, we had to weld and grind the hole from inside the tank.

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