Small brewery electrical capacity

[HarryW]

Hey All,

Do you guys think 3 phase 200amp 208v electrical service is enough for a 60 seat brewpub.

10bbl direct fire 2 vessel brew house with 10bbl electric HLT. 5FV and 1 Brite, glycol chilled. with 300 sq.ft walk in cooler. Small kitchen for light food service as well(1 electric or gas range and dishwasher).

Other potential power draw perhaps sound system and possibly clothes washer/dryer?

Annual production goal 600bbl. Maybe 20% packaged product on 3rd party outside contract canning/bottling lines


Thanks!

[SpectrumAle]

We are a small 60 seat taproom with a 6bbl direct fire system - with a 200A 3 phase panel and we are on the edge of outgrowing it. This was a new installation and things were wired to code. I'd highly advise to upgrade to a larger panel is possible.

[HarryW]

What size cool room did you guys go with? And how large a glycol system? And how many cellar tanks? Also compressor size?

Thanks for the response!

[a10t2]

Just going through what you've outlined:

HLT (assuming 40 kW): 120 A
Glycol (5 HP): 20 A
Kitchen (incl. hood): 3 x 20 A

So you've already maxed out the 200 A panel even without HVAC, lighting, refrigeration for the kitchen/bar, etc.

Big-picture question: At 60 batches per year with five fermenters, you're planning on a 30 day average turn, is that right?

[HarryW]

Just going through what you've outlined:

HLT (assuming 40 kW): 120 A
Glycol (5 HP): 20 A
Kitchen (incl. hood): 3 x 20 A

So you've already maxed out the 200 A panel even without HVAC, lighting, refrigeration for the kitchen/bar, etc.

Big-picture question: At 60 batches per year with five fermenters, you're planning on a 30 day average turn, is that right?

The manufacturer said this supply is sufficient and is common in the breweries they've put in! But having my electrician look at everything, we probably won't be going with the space, most say its too small a power supply.

And yes, 30day average turn. Issues?

[a10t2]

The manufacturer said this supply is sufficient and is common in the breweries they've put in! But having my electrician look at everything, we probably won't be going with the space, most say its too small a power supply.

FWIW, I think you can make it work in 200 A, you just won't have any expansion potential and you have to give up the electric HLT. If you're running gas for the kettle anyway the only reason not to do both would be if the supply line isn't big enough.

We're probably right at half your size and we're only using 100 A of a 200 A panel currently, specifically so that we can add an electric HLT and double-batch when we're ready.

And yes, 30day average turn. Issues?

If you aren't doing something that would necessitate it (all lager, all sour, etc.) it seems like a long average. Even for an ale/lager mix with some higher-gravity stuff thrown in I'd plan on more like 2-3 weeks and an all-ale model could be more like 10 days.

[HarryW]

FWIW, I think you can make it work in 200 A, you just won't have any expansion potential and you have to give up the electric HLT. If you're running gas for the kettle anyway the only reason not to do both would be if the supply line isn't big enough.

We're probably right at half your size and we're only using 100 A of a 200 A panel currently, specifically so that we can add an electric HLT and double-batch when we're ready.



If you aren't doing something that would necessitate it (all lager, all sour, etc.) it seems like a long average. Even for an ale/lager mix with some higher-gravity stuff thrown in I'd plan on more like 2-3 weeks and an all-ale model could be more like 10 days.

The building is a multi tenant building, if we do grow too fast we may potentially be able to take a neighbouring unit(landlord is okay with moving tenants around), my electrician says this would double up our electrical service, basically having 2x 200amp service. But I'm just worried about not having enough juice for this single 5,500sq.ft. unit we're looking at.

When you say give up electric HLT, do you mean switched for gas heated HLT? Or no HLT and go with on-demand hot water supply? Also, what equipment are you running in your brewery? and size of brewery?

The goal is 600BBL production, do you mean 5FV is too much for this production goal? We can start with maybe 3-4FV but ideally the electricity has to be able to service getting extra FV tanks down the road as we grow(in the same unit). So the glycol chiller would have sufficient power to cool 10FV.

[wickedpissa]

200a is defentiely doable, but you'll be about at the limit. My 10bbl brewery was 200a 3 phase. Is there any reason you can't bring in more service in the future?

[HarryW]

200a is defentiely doable, but you'll be about at the limit. My 10bbl brewery was 200a 3 phase. Is there any reason you can't bring in more service in the future?

The city pole is maxed out, so it'd be way over our budget if we have to pay city to put one in. Can you tell a bit more about your equipment and brewery? Sq. ft.? Walk in cooler size? Brewhouse and cellaring tanks? Thanks, really appreciate it.

[a10t2]

When you say give up electric HLT, do you mean switched for gas heated HLT? Or no HLT and go with on-demand hot water supply? Also, what equipment are you running in your brewery? and size of brewery?

You could do either assuming you can find a water heater that can keep up with your temps and flow rates. Or neither; you don't really need an HLT unless you're double batching (and technically not even then, you'll just hate life on double brew days).

We have 4 x 7 bbl FVs and 5 x 7 bbl TDVs (in a cold room). The brewery itself is about 350 sq ft.

The number of fermenters needed is just capacity times average turn time, divided by 365 times batch volume. For a 14 day turn: 600 * 14 / (365 * 10) = 2.3 FVs, and you'd want to round up to 3.

[Weehe]

I vote to switch the HLT to a gas burner/heat source. I wouldn't recommend using a tankless water heater as a replacement unless you like making beer with softened city water.

[HarryW]

You could do either assuming you can find a water heater that can keep up with your temps and flow rates. Or neither; you don't really need an HLT unless you're double batching (and technically not even then, you'll just hate life on double brew days).

We have 4 x 7 bbl FVs and 5 x 7 bbl TDVs (in a cold room). The brewery itself is about 350 sq ft.

The number of fermenters needed is just capacity times average turn time, divided by 365 times batch volume. For a 14 day turn: 600 * 14 / (365 * 10) = 2.3 FVs, and you'd want to round up to 3.

Cool, good to know the calculations. I guess 3FV is sufficient to start for us. Do you only run glycol to only the 4FVs? How large is the total sq.ft. of the building and what about front of house power consumption? Kitchen/bar/dishwasher?

I was planning to go the kegging route and just 1 or 2 7bbl TDV in the walk in(planning on 5-6taps), but we are planning for a 300sq.ft. walk in cooler.


Weehe

We do plan to go gas direct fire 2 vessel brewhouse, it does make sense to get gas HLT, do you think gas HLT is efficient as it could be just sitting around for the weekend or few days at a time(cooling down). Good tip for tankless, i hear they break down often and require lots of maintenance. HLT is the way to go for us.

[Alex Warm]

I'd highly advise to upgrade to a larger panel if possible.

[a10t2]

Do you only run glycol to only the 4FVs? How large is the total sq.ft. of the building and what about front of house power consumption? Kitchen/bar/dishwasher?

Right, the TDVs are single walled. Total 1900 sq ft, the kitchen is small but all electric so that's by far the biggest draw (3 x 20 A). We do have a spare circuit at the bar for a dishwasher in case we want to add one. Gas furnace, so most of the rest is just lighting and utility outlets for staff and customers. We are on a 230/1 panel so you have a fair bit (~50%) more total power.

We do plan to go gas direct fire 2 vessel brewhouse, it does make sense to get gas HLT, do you think gas HLT is efficient as it could be just sitting around for the weekend or few days at a time(cooling down).

Given that you're planning on brewing a little over once a week I question the need for an HLT in the first place. Maybe stub in the gas for it since you're planning on expansion but presumably you'll have somewhere else you end up wanting to spend ~$10k.

[wickedpissa]

The city pole is maxed out, so it'd be way over our budget if we have to pay city to put one in. Can you tell a bit more about your equipment and brewery? Sq. ft.? Walk in cooler size? Brewhouse and cellaring tanks? Thanks, really appreciate it.

We had a 5500sf space, 2000 SF for the brewery. 10bbl system. 2 10bbl terms, 4 5bbl terms, all connected to a 3ton glycol chiller. Walk-in was 14x14 and cooled with a 24k but air-conditioner and coolbot. Our bride was also in it's own 5x5 walk in with an ac/coolbot. We had a CLT and HLT, but didn't have heating or cooling attached to them, just for bulk water containers. Had a fully auto kegwasher, compressor, undercounter dishwasher, and the rest was mostly courtesy outlets. Had an auger and grain mill also.