polyphenols and whirlpooling

[brain medicine]

been trying to figure out how i keep getting some nasty bitterness in some recent pilot brews. i'm leaning towards this being polyphenols and not actual AA bitterness. its that harsh type, and grassy, like you see in alot of NEIPAs. in the shellhammer paper on hop extraction times they noted that the recirc during DH beers got there faster but had more bitterness from polyphenols, and assumed it was due to breaking up the veg matter during recirc.

im wondering if maybe i'm getting that during whirlpool? a few beers had substantial whirlpool sessions of 45-60 minutes and while that didnt seem out of the ordinary, thats kind of the only thing that stands out about these beers. we figured at lower temps (varying from 180 to 150ish) we needed to go for a while. are we taking too long there?

wondering if maybe we should go for a "hopstand" type process after flameout? no recirc during the stand, just natural convection, and then just a quick 5-10 min WP to drop the hops and trub.

hops are fresh. we use phosophoric acid, whirlfloc, Brewtan B, etc. nothing out of the ordinary that i'd see causing a reaction.

anybody else seeen anything like this?

and on related note- is there way to remove polyphenols post kettle? i know wine folks have some additives, but not sure if they'll work cold side...

[lupulus]

During boil, when are you adding BTB, Whirlfloc and acid vs EOB.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

[brain medicine]

During boil, when are you adding BTB, Whirlfloc and acid vs EOB.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

acid in mash, BTB in mash.

BTB about 15 min before flameout. whirlfloc about 10 min before flameout. and if we do a big hop charge late or for WP then i'll often add a bit of acid to counteract the ph rise.

[lupulus]

BTB can cause an astringent taste of not used correctly.
Maybe that's the problem.
I suggest trying BTB at 7-8 min and Whirlfloc at 4 min and see if improves.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

[brain medicine]

i was told not to use BTB and whirfloc too close together. am i mis-remembering that? seems like you're advising to use them even closer together.

and on that note, is there a problem with adding them right before flameout if you're going to keep the wort in the kettle to WP? been looking all over the interwebs for some more details on usage beyond "8g per bbl in mash" and "5g per bbl in kettle" but not having much luck

[gitchegumee]

45-60 minutes whirlpool seems excessively excessive. I wouldn't go longer than 15, and then I'd be working on shortening that.

[lupulus]

i was told not to use BTB and whirfloc too close together. am i mis-remembering that? seems like you're advising to use them even closer together.

and on that note, is there a problem with adding them right before flameout if you're going to keep the wort in the kettle to WP? been looking all over the interwebs for some more details on usage beyond "8g per bbl in mash" and "5g per bbl in kettle" but not having much luck

I know that what I mentioned works for me.
Variations would need trial and error.
Note I pre dissolve BTB. Without this, it may need more time.


Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

[barleyfreak]

45-60 minutes whirlpool seems excessively excessive. I wouldn't go longer than 15, and then I'd be working on shortening that.

Yeah I agree with this. We start the whirlpool, give it some help with the mash paddle to get going for a couple minutes (we're a 7bbl, so that's an option), then let it ride for an additional 5 minutes and shut it down for a 20 minute rest.

[Dheeraj]

Have you considered whirlpool hop utilization or IBU contribution? and at what temp do you add your whirlpool/Hopstand hops? BU: GU ratio?

Thanks

[mmm_beer]

If I end up sucking a bunch of mud at the bottom of the kettle during knock out, I find a really harsh bitterness sits for about four or five days, then mellows.

[zebrum]

acid in mash, BTB in mash.

BTB about 15 min before flameout. whirlfloc about 10 min before flameout. and if we do a big hop charge late or for WP then i'll often add a bit of acid to counteract the ph rise.

Maybe forgot acid in sparge water?