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Is this burner strong enough for 2 bbl?

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  • FarGohn
    replied
    burner size

    Im using a commercial kitchen 'hot plate' with 6 burners listed at 180k btu for a 5bbl set up. It will boil 1 hour after sparge ends. Keeps up a good boil. I turn off a burner or 2 when doing a smaller batch after boil is attained. I had a frame of tube steel made for the kettle to rest on since I didn't trust the appliance to hold the weight. My gas bill in summer is $45-60 doing a batch-a-week with a gas tank-less hot water heater, so ~$15 a batch in gas. The kettle is one of the few things I dont need to upgrade since opening a nano. My 2 cents.
    Steve
    Far Gohn Brewing Co

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  • dick murton
    replied
    Mike

    Thanks for the explanation. I never dreamt that burners would be that inefficient, or perhaps, that burners are sold on the basis of energy consumption only, with no mention of heat output. I had assumed they were sold on (maximum) heat output.

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  • Brandjes
    replied
    I have 2 x 23 jet natural gas burners under my 80 gal. kettle. About 200k btu total. runoff is about 150-160F in the kettle. Light the fire when it's 25% full and it's boiling about 10-20 minutes after the kettle is full.

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  • rdcpro
    replied
    Originally posted by dick murton View Post
    Just a comment, as I am intrigued by the discrepancy of my calculations and some of those quoted.

    I'm not querying the voice of experience, but it seems that to need a 300,000 btu burner, you must have an extremely inefficient heat transfer process. Either that, or my calculations are way, way out.

    Assuming 10% evaporation per hour from 2 brl, I calculate at 100 % efficiency, you would only need about 30,000 btu / hr. A mere 10% efficiency, allowing for heat transfer inefficiency, and losses due to poor insulation does seem incredibly low. Or have I got my calculations wrong. (970 btu / pound water evaporated)

    Comments please. Thanks.
    I think burners are rated according to the BTU content of the fuel they consume, not the heat they produce. And many of the cheaper ones are very wasteful of fuel. A 23 impinged jet burner (where each jet is 5000 BTU/hour) is 115K BTU/hr. AFAIK, impinged jet burners can be pretty efficient compared to a "banjo" style burner. So you'd get a lot more of those 115K applied to the kettle. You see "rocket" style burners in the homebrew scene with ratings like 210K, but there's no way in hell they produce that much heat!

    I'm sure one could rig up a test apparatus with one of the cheap 23 jet burners like they use in the Wok stove. If it works, get a real stove with CSA approval. However, the impinged jet burners have a lousy turndown ratio, and I've looked for, but haven't found a impinged jet burner with an "inner/outer" ring configuration where you could simply turn off a percentage of the jets. Some years ago I watched a local brewer (on a frankenbrew system) boiling about 2-3 BBL (not sure the exact brew length). He was using a 23 jet burner, and while the kettle overall wasn't boiling hard, where the burner impinged on the bottom seemed to be going well.

    But here's another thought. I've wondered for some time why you can't build an external calandria in a situation like this, or even an internal one might get the wort hotter where you need it, to remove DMS precursors. In my case I'm thinking of an electric external calandria for the same batch size (2bbl). That way the element is not in the kettle interfering with the whirlpool. But I'd imagine you could do the same thing with direct fire. Or using an internal calandria, sort of like a giant 2bbl coffee percolator (think: upside down funnel, with a way to adjust ingress of colder wort from the perimeter of the kettle). Remove the calandria at the end of the boil just before whirlpooling.

    Regards,
    Mike Sharp
    Last edited by rdcpro; 02-22-2016, 03:19 PM.

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  • dick murton
    replied
    Just a comment, as I am intrigued by the discrepancy of my calculations and some of those quoted.

    I'm not querying the voice of experience, but it seems that to need a 300,000 btu burner, you must have an extremely inefficient heat transfer process. Either that, or my calculations are way, way out.

    Assuming 10% evaporation per hour from 2 brl, I calculate at 100 % efficiency, you would only need about 30,000 btu / hr. A mere 10% efficiency, allowing for heat transfer inefficiency, and losses due to poor insulation does seem incredibly low. Or have I got my calculations wrong. (970 btu / pound water evaporated)

    Comments please. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yellowbeard
    replied
    Radiance Burner

    I have owned a pair of those precise burners for almost 4 years. They're fantastic for the money.

    My impression is that it actually achieves something like 79,000 BTU, which can't be said for every burner on the market. There's not much by way of testing & rating standards for atmospheric burners. I routinely boil 25 gallons in 30 gallon Blichmann kettles. I throw full power to the inner & outer rings until nearing boil, then cut back on the outer ring to achieve a steady boil. I'm probably using about 65% of full power to sustain a 25 gallon boil, and finish with about 22 gallons after 60 minutes.

    I have recommended these same burners to folks boiling 35-40 gallons in 55 gallon Blichmann kettles and results seem good.

    2bbl might be a stretch. I have a feeling it would bring it to a boil, eventually... especially is your kettle has a relatively wide bottom. You might not be able to maintain the most vigorous boil, but that may not be the end of the world. Sorry to seem so conflicted but I'm kind of on the fence with the 2bbl recommendation. I'm not thinking it's a sure thing, but compared to the $5k upgrade it might be worth a shot.

    PM me if you decide to go for it. I can direct you to a website where they're about $25 cheaper AND free shipping.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stray Dog
    replied
    Originally posted by bwalden234 View Post
    Hi there, 79k btus will take forever to boil 2 bbls. Thats the rating on my old home brew setup and it took an hour to bring 12 gallons to a boil. That being said we are using 2 - 320,000 btu burners (1 ea) under our kettle and HLT That takes us close to an hour to get to a boil from ground water temps. To have enough power to come to a quicker boil I would say you should be looking in the 120 - 220k range. Some of this will depend on your supply line as well. We had to up our gas line size to 2" to feed the burners properly. Venting will also be something to look at. We have a 10" stack with a power vent to remove the combustion gases out. Just my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps.
    Thanks for the advice. When you say that it you're using 320,000 btu burners, what size is your kettle?

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott M
    replied
    Originally posted by Stray Dog View Post
    That would be a nice option, but it does add at least $5k to the scenario. Right now I'm just looking for a burner that can support a 2 bbl kettle.
    I'm not certain that you can find a stand alone burner that you can place into your DIY set-up without an inspection. I fear the restaurant burners you are looking at are not strong enough to support 2 BBL of boiling wort, and the BTU output of an open burner needs to be upward of 200,000 BTU to do a proper job of boiling if you don't want noticeable amounts of DMS in your beers.

    Stand alone burners tend to be small in relation to your 55 gallon kettle and their ability to support the kettle is also questionable. $5K may be an investment now, but when you take into account the issues surrounding safety and their resulting cost, $5K might appear to be relatively inexpensive. 212 degree boiling sugar water doesn't wash off... Well it does, but it takes a layer of skin and flesh with it.

    I have seen operating breweries in the US with some pretty dangerous set-ups from kettles on cement blocks with multiple burners each with its own propane source to home built brew stands that were under engineered for the weight of the kettle, tun and HLT. You may try looking for a used kettle in the 3 BBL volume range to get around the CSA approval process.

    Leave a comment:


  • bwalden234
    replied
    Burners

    Hi there, 79k btus will take forever to boil 2 bbls. Thats the rating on my old home brew setup and it took an hour to bring 12 gallons to a boil. That being said we are using 2 - 320,000 btu burners (1 ea) under our kettle and HLT That takes us close to an hour to get to a boil from ground water temps. To have enough power to come to a quicker boil I would say you should be looking in the 120 - 220k range. Some of this will depend on your supply line as well. We had to up our gas line size to 2" to feed the burners properly. Venting will also be something to look at. We have a 10" stack with a power vent to remove the combustion gases out. Just my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mtnmann
    replied
    If you can go LP, I use this guy: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/back...554BPHP17.html

    Boils quick.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stray Dog
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott M View Post
    I know it is pricy, but why not just do this... http://www.glaciertanks.com/Brew_Ket...Lid_3_BBL.html
    That would be a nice option, but it does add at least $5k to the scenario. Right now I'm just looking for a burner that can support a 2 bbl kettle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott M
    replied
    I know it is pricy, but why not just do this... http://www.glaciertanks.com/Brew_Ket...Lid_3_BBL.html

    Leave a comment:


  • Stray Dog
    started a topic Is this burner strong enough for 2 bbl?

    Is this burner strong enough for 2 bbl?

    I'm going to be doing some brewing in a soon to open brewpub. 2 bbl batches. Going electric is off the table (it's a long story short, but we can't do it). Now I'm looking for burners that will be strong enough to bring 2 bbl batches to a boil. I'm not quite sure what the BTU power will need to be (using NG). I was thinking that I would build a brewstand and install some jet burners, but the engineer has informed me that if I build it, it will need a very pricey inspection. We're in Canada and everything requires CSA approval. So, now I'm looking at commercial kitchen burners and wondering if any will be strong enough (to bring to a boil and support the weight). Would something like this work?

    3 RING GAS COMMERCIAL STOCK POT BURNER 18" RANGE W/ 6" LEGS (79,000 BTU burner) http://www.ebay.com/itm/RADIANCE-TAS...-/381544106047

    We'll be using 55 gallon Blichmann kettles with the extensions that increase the volume to 2 bbl.

    Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
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