Calling all GAI Filler/Capper users

[TGTimm]

What model of GAI machine are you using? Our 3003A has no sensor in the bowl, but uses a float valve to control the level via CO2 pressure balance between it and the bright tank.

[rdcpro]

The little cracks are just on the ptfe coating on the rod. We're not positive that matters, but it's reading inaccurate. Not much on electronics, but our guess is beer is getting past the coating and directly on the rod and throwing off the signal. I'm thinking the calibration is taking in affect of the coating and since beer may be passing the coating that it's reading wrong. We're thinking of pulling the sensor back out and getting some ptfe heat shrink to cover that area. We also tried setting it to the minimum 6% fill this morning for giggles and it still fills the bowl up completely. One place says a replacement is $1,300 and another $4,200, so we're looking for all options.

That's a capacitive sensor, so the coating must be intact. It's FEP, though, not TFE. You might be able to recoat it with something, but I doubt you'll be able to recalibrate it. The tiniest difference in the dielectric constant of your coating, and it will throw things off. You might contact Vega and see if these can be repaired by replacing just the rod.

Otherwise, the good news is you don't really have to replace it with the exact same sensor. Depending on how long the rod is, you should be able to find similar devices from other suppliers. I'm assuming the signal is two wire 4-20mA, but just make sure whatever you get to replace it will support the same signal. Sometimes you'll see a device that uses a voltage output; it's possible to convert from one to the other, but you need to know what you're doing, and have the proper resistor.

Don't confuse capacitive level switches for your sensor. Yours is a continuous level sensor. $1300 is a little high, but I'm afraid you're going to spend some decent coin to replace it.

Calibration and setup on these can tricky. Years ago I worked with a German bottling line that used a similar bowl sensor. I don't know how yours is set up, but this one needed the range to be set correctly and the running level was based on the speed of the filler. The level signal drove a VFD that ran a pump which kept the bowl full. It's counter-intuitive, because when the filler was running full speed, you actually want the level very low in the bowl, and when the filler is running slow, the opposite it true and you want the level high. The reason for this is when it's running full speed, the only thing that the filler can do is run slower, but since your pump is running full bore too, you need time for the pump to slow down. If the full speed level is high, the bowl will overflow if you suddenly slow down. Conversely, when you're running slow, and then crank 'er up, and the level is already low when you start, you'll get low fills.



Regards,
Mike Sharp

[Jeremy Thompson]

That's a capacitive sensor, so the coating must be intact. It's FEP, though, not TFE. You might be able to recoat it with something, but I doubt you'll be able to recalibrate it. The tiniest difference in the dielectric constant of your coating, and it will throw things off. You might contact Vega and see if these can be repaired by replacing just the rod.

Otherwise, the good news is you don't really have to replace it with the exact same sensor. Depending on how long the rod is, you should be able to find similar devices from other suppliers. I'm assuming the signal is two wire 4-20mA, but just make sure whatever you get to replace it will support the same signal. Sometimes you'll see a device that uses a voltage output; it's possible to convert from one to the other, but you need to know what you're doing, and have the proper resistor.

Don't confuse capacitive level switches for your sensor. Yours is a continuous level sensor. $1300 is a little high, but I'm afraid you're going to spend some decent coin to replace it.

Calibration and setup on these can tricky. Years ago I worked with a German bottling line that used a similar bowl sensor. I don't know how yours is set up, but this one needed the range to be set correctly and the running level was based on the speed of the filler. The level signal drove a VFD that ran a pump which kept the bowl full. It's counter-intuitive, because when the filler was running full speed, you actually want the level very low in the bowl, and when the filler is running slow, the opposite it true and you want the level high. The reason for this is when it's running full speed, the only thing that the filler can do is run slower, but since your pump is running full bore too, you need time for the pump to slow down. If the full speed level is high, the bowl will overflow if you suddenly slow down. Conversely, when you're running slow, and then crank 'er up, and the level is already low when you start, you'll get low fills.



Regards,
Mike Sharp

Thanks, yeah I had a feeling that the coating played some part in it and said the same thing about covering over top of maybe not working. . I believe Vega told us the rod itself couldn't be replaced separately though. We run from brite, to diaphragm pump, to filler inlet, so there's a lot of communication going on. What I wouldn't give for a mechanical float set up! HaHa.

[rdcpro]

Thanks, yeah I had a feeling that the coating played some part in it and said the same thing about covering over top of maybe not working. . I believe Vega told us the rod itself couldn't be replaced separately though. We run from brite, to diaphragm pump, to filler inlet, so there's a lot of communication going on. What I wouldn't give for a mechanical float set up! HaHa.

Hmmm...then I'm wondering why it uses continuous level control. Does it control the speed of the diaphragm pump? Or, asked another way, is the level always constant during operation, whether running slow or fast?

If there is someone in your neck of the woods with control systems experience, maybe it could be swapped out for a more simple on/off type of sensor. Unless maybe it's used to change the level during CIP. For example, when a CIP cycle is going, does the bowl fill entirely?


Regards,
Mike Sharp

[Jeremy Thompson]

Hmmm...then I'm wondering why it uses continuous level control. Does it control the speed of the diaphragm pump? Or, asked another way, is the level always constant during operation, whether running slow or fast?

If there is someone in your neck of the woods with control systems experience, maybe it could be swapped out for a more simple on/off type of sensor. Unless maybe it's used to change the level during CIP. For example, when a CIP cycle is going, does the bowl fill entirely?


Regards,
Mike Sharp

Yeah, when the percentage drops, it triggers the filler valve and the pump. It will pump in more beer as we're running, so no matter if we're running 1800 or 3000 bottles it keeps up. Owners father is an electrician, so he's giving us some help.

I was just hoping I could find others that may have had similar issues. We going to try something Monday and hope to get out a couple pallets at least. In the meantime were looking for replacements that we can get sooner than several weeks.

[bennybrew]

vacuum pump troubles

We were merrily bottling along with the machine stopped. It was not a door or star wheel fault and would not start again. It turns out, some wires in the junction box on the vacuum pump had shorted out. Still, the machine would not do anything with the vacuum pump switch in auto or manual. It would only rotate with the switch on 0.

Today, we hard wired the pump to the breaker box and the pump ran. Now the pump is back wired into the bottler but it still won't rotate with the vacuum switch on auto.

Any ideas?

[bennybrew]

blue collars?

Anyone have a source for these blue collars? Some of ours are split.



Yes, I borrowed this pic from Tim.

[TGTimm]

John--the vacuum pump situation sounds bad to me. Chances are, the short burned out a fuse (hopefully) or something else in the control system. Have fun tracing the wiring. Hopefully it's something cheap to replace (ha ha).

We've replaced those sleeves once, and we sourced them from Prospero. I didn't have time to seek out an alternative. Finding some plastic tubing of the same ID/OD would allow you to make your own.

The sleeves are just bushings, and as long as they stay on the poppet shafts (and aren't shedding bits) you're good to go. BTW--they are supposed to be split down one side.

Have you done the Flex-Hone fix yet (detailed near where you found that photo)? If you've got the filler heads apart, spend the extra few bucks and and the hour or so it takes to do this! We fought sliced o-rings for years before I found this solution, and now we rarely replace a poppet o-ring. Those cross-bores are honed razor-sharp from the factory, and getting an o-ring past them without slicing a chunk out is almost impossible--and those sliced o-rings will cause problems that will have you chasing your tail for days.

I'm tearing into the filler heads today for our annual maintenance....

[TheSonofHops]

Cleaning

Hey All,
I spoke with Jordje at GAI California the other day. He left me feeling like we were not cleaning our machine in the proper fashion. I was curious what everyone else was doing pre and post run for their machines.

After a bottling run, we rinse with cold then hot water to get the bowl temperature up around 150F. Then we pack with a 1% caustic solution for 30 minutes. We will leave it packed with caustic if we are not running again within the next day. Otherwise we will rinse the caustic, bring the bowl temp down to less than 100F then pack with a 1% acid solution overnight. The next morning (pre run) we will drain the acid, rinse and then pack with a 100ppm PAA solution for 15 minutes. That we drain and purge the bowl with CO2 twice (burps) before repressurizing the bowl and bringing the product.

It was stated that we are overly cleaning our machines with chemicals that are too aggressive and may be damaging orings and such. Just curious what everyone else was doing.

Thanks,

Matt Yohe
Packaging Manager
Northern United Brewing Co
Dexter, MI

[TGTimm]

We're using 2% caustic to clean ours--have done for about 7 years. I replace all the rubber annually, and I don't see anything that seems to be damaged by cleaning.

Most of the seals and o-rings are Buna (one seal and one o-ring/head are silicone). Theoretically, this is a bit more sensitive to caustics than Viton.

[rleglise]

To clean our line we do the following post bottling:
1. Cold rinse
2. Hot rinse
3. Hot Supreme cycle (fill bowl, cover inside of machine everywhere needed)
4. Hot rinse
5. let cool

We clean all of the individual removable parts with 60% Ethanol, or Supreme if they are reactive to ethanol (plastic vacuum canister for example)

Our pre-bottling cleaning ritual is:
1. Hook up steam and steam entire machine for 30 minutes
2. Cold rinse + towel dry
3. Purge
4. Add beer and go'

We've found that Supreme is more gentle on our rubber gaskets and O rings...but the steam also takes its toll, so we replace them as needed.

Hope that helps,

Richard

[dowlingbeck]

Bier 3301 FM

To whomever it may concern:

We just started to experience inconsistent pressure levels in our beer bowl. The analogue pressure gauge on the bowl doesn't match the actual on the control panel; furthermore, we've discovered small Co2 evacuating from the cylinder (level administration plant?) on top of the bowl. In conclusion, we spoke to a prospero tech and he stated that it seems as though we have some bad seals. Has anyone had this problem? If so, did you replace them on your own?

I believe the technical term would be the leveling administration plant and pressure administration plant. Probably, somewhere along the lines of the counter pressure line.

Cheers!


Joe Beck
Head Brewer, Blue Mountain Barrel House

http://www.bluemountainbrewery.com/

434-826-8199

[TGTimm]

Interesting picture--are you in the Southern Hemisphere?

If you have leaks from the tower, you definitely need to replace the seals. I haven't had to do this yet, but I think it's something you all can handle yourselves.

The descriptions in the manual are poorly translated from Italian, apparently via Sumerian and Sanskrit.

You need to calibrate your pressure gauges, or at least some of them. Never trust an untested gauge. The most important pressure gauges are the one on your bright tank and the one on the bowl. Search this forum for some DIY calibration rigs.

[bennybrew]

vibrating bowl

I can't seem to find my original post but...

We had a vibration in the bowl as it rotated. It turned out to be that the pedestals were not being properly lubricated. When you pushed the button it sounded like air was moving but there is no oil in it. We have oil in the chamber and the nozzle appears to be clear but there is nothing coming out.

We cleaned the pedestals and now lubricate manually with a spray can and the vibration has not returned.

[TGTimm]

You haven't mentioned the model # or DOM of your machine--these GAI machines vary a lot by model and through the years, even within one model.

If the pedestal lubrication isn't working, it probably isn't turned on. If you have a touch-screen, it probably is on the "Starts" screen--and it's probably called "Cylinders Lubrication" or something similar. On our 2006 3003A Bier, there is no auto, so we run the CL on start-up and then every hour or so.

The Cylinder Lubrication lubricates the inside of the pedestals--the actual pneumatic cylinder--the outside is your responsibility to lube.