Canning Discussion For Nano and Brewpubs- 2019/2020

[AGB]

Got the notification that my 4500C shipped today for a Friday, Feb 5 delivery. With the bad weather sweeping across the country and of course the C-word, I betting it won't arrive until next week.

[AGB]

Not really necessary, but if subbing for the 30' of hose in an ice bath it makes sense. Add some rock salt to the water and ice bath. The flow through the tubing will not only bring the temp down but help prevent freezing or separation of the alcohol and water. Also more prolonged contact with stainless rather than vinyl which might have less of an effect on flavor or off-flavors than vinyl would.

Thanks for the insight. Since many of us have jockey box stuff for festivals, I thought it would be worth a try. I ordered my 4500C. Thanks for all the detailed feedback.

[Blu Dragonfly]

Not really necessary, but if subbing for the 30' of hose in an ice bath it makes sense. Add some rock salt to the water and ice bath. The flow through the tubing will not only bring the temp down but help prevent freezing or separation of the alcohol and water. Also more prolonged contact with stainless rather than vinyl which might have less of an effect on flavor or off-flavors than vinyl would.

[AGB]

There has been discussion about beer line length and chilling the beer line. Has anyone ever used a jockey box coil in a cooler of ice water? They are 3/8" and the inlet on the 4500c is also 3/8"

[Crosley]

We operate a small brewery but have decent size uni tanks for distribution (7 BBL). It is great to hear positive reviews from the XF4500C. Canning has always been our biggest challenge and COVID has for us, just like others, into selling cans with slim margins. We purchased an Oktober Model 7 B last spring for 16 oz cans and have sold plenty with fills off of the tap. As you can imagine, the shelf life is short but we have only had issues with our hoppy beers. Selling to go cans out of the taproom has been great so we decided to go with a mobile canning line to roll the dice. I will say that the guys from the mobile canning were great and it was nice that we had legit cans that we felt good about the canning quality. The problem is that we have to can 15 bbls at a time to get somewhat decent margins that we can turn for a profit. And then we are sitting on 145 cases of beer in our 10 x 12 walk in. That's the biggest problem that we have with a mobile canner. Canning 10 - 20 cases at a time is ideal for us starting out so that we can produce and store a fresh product. If the XF4500C is in house solution for in house canning then that could be a life saver for us. I'm seriously considering about pulling the trigger now.

That was exactly our problem and why we went down this path. I have a XF 2200 that I'm selling if you're interested.

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[MainstreamBrew]

We operate a small brewery but have decent size uni tanks for distribution (7 BBL). It is great to hear positive reviews from the XF4500C. Canning has always been our biggest challenge and COVID has for us, just like others, into selling cans with slim margins. We purchased an Oktober Model 7 B last spring for 16 oz cans and have sold plenty with fills off of the tap. As you can imagine, the shelf life is short but we have only had issues with our hoppy beers. Selling to go cans out of the taproom has been great so we decided to go with a mobile canning line to roll the dice. I will say that the guys from the mobile canning were great and it was nice that we had legit cans that we felt good about the canning quality. The problem is that we have to can 15 bbls at a time to get somewhat decent margins that we can turn for a profit. And then we are sitting on 145 cases of beer in our 10 x 12 walk in. That's the biggest problem that we have with a mobile canner. Canning 10 - 20 cases at a time is ideal for us starting out so that we can produce and store a fresh product. If the XF4500C is in house solution for in house canning then that could be a life saver for us. I'm seriously considering about pulling the trigger now.

[AGB]

Thanks again for all the info. I definitely agree about the MCS. It is basically the same thing as an XPress open filler. I've also looked at the Fillmore site many times. I've just never ran across anyone who has one.

[Blu Dragonfly]

Thanks for the update and this is good to hear. I have also stopped brewing but plan to start back in Jan or Feb. My space is tight and this setup looks like two people can blast through some beer and not be stepping on each other. I have a brand new, still unused Oktober Model 7 seamer and I'm going to use glass washer to spray sanitizer into the cans. I also have a brand new Easy Labeler but will upgrade that soon to a Primera. After this, I may get either a Gosling or the American Canning filler/seamer.

Two more quick questions:
do you have the 110v or the 220v? I assume they make the 220 for the Euro market but I can supply either current.
I see you mentioned elevation. I'm at about 2200' I shouldn't have any issues if you are >6k. I wonder if I should just start with 20ft of hose?

I've got a 110V system.

20' should be just fine at 2200 msl. You can always cut the hose shorter. I like using 30' because I submerse it in ice to help prevent foam break out and I'd probably keep the length even at a lower elevation because we've just had great results. I realize vinyl tubing isn't a great conductor but it definitely doesn't hurt to help keep the the line cold. Reality is with two people in a pretty good rhythm and filling at about 3-4 psi counter pressure, you will do well to can 5-7.5 cases per hour, I could see achieving 10, but that's pushing it. Essentially, you should be able to can a half barrel keg in an hour. It's pretty clear this is far too labor intensive for deep distribution commitments but it is pretty darn ideal for in-house sales or selling to some local package stores or small grocers you might be in with.

We've even canned some larger runs direct from uni-tanks set at 30 degrees F at 14 psi and did quite well canning. I guess I don't quite get the point of a tank tender or similar device unless larger canning lines drain CO2 so quickly. I glance at the pressure and temp every 3-4 fill cycles and adjust as necessary. It's not rocket science.

It blows my mind when I see what breweries have paid for Cask MCS "machines" when that's nothing more than an open two head filler which closely resembles Xpressfill's open canners and a seamer with a huge Baldor motor mounted on a stainless sink for $16 to $20K? Are you freaking kidding me? I feel bad for people taken in by that but beer is their passion, not mechanics.

I'm somewhat shocked when I see how much money is blown when passionate brewers with little or no mechanical or engineering sense put together a brewery. I don't know about you, but I've had some pretty shitty beer brewed and packaged on $1mm in pretty equipment and some fantastic beer out of a glorified 3BBL homebrew system.

I think our next step on packaging will be a Fillmore. Four head isobaric filling for $25K and up to 30 cases per hour? Even halved at 15 cases per hour for two people, that's really good throughput.

https://www.fillmore.beer/lead-times

I'm a huge fan of their technology and practical approach as well as affordability. Seems like an easy system to devise a depal and pack-off system from it. There's another area I don't understand: why breweries spend so much on de-pal and ancillary equipment that is not that hard to engineer and construct.

[AGB]

I have been very happy with our machine. We've had some issues with the fill level controller being a bit wonky at times, all that means when it happens is pay attention to your overflow/outflow tube and shut it off when you see beer come through. Here's what I love about the company though: I called a month or so back got right to tech support about the flow sensor issue, he recommended some different things. I said I'd try them in a week or two (we're on very tight COVID restrictions right now so we've just elected to close until spring) as we weren't busy and I'd get back to him and if those adjustments didn't work they would send me a couple of controllers under warranty. Two days later a mystery package arrives from California, two new flow sensor modules. I had not even made the changes they requested I try nor called with feedback. Apparently, he must have looked our account up and sent us two modules with 2nd day shipping. That's astonishing customer service.

Every batch of beer is going to behave differently when canning, but having a counter pressure filler will help you dial in your fill so much easier with less foam and waste. I would not use an open head filler on this scale. Based on sensory tests, our O2 pick up is very minimal even when I'm running fills and seams on my own.

I give the 4500C a thumbs up.

Thanks for the update and this is good to hear. I have also stopped brewing but plan to start back in Jan or Feb. My space is tight and this setup looks like two people can blast through some beer and not be stepping on each other. I have a brand new, still unused Oktober Model 7 seamer and I'm going to use glass washer to spray sanitizer into the cans. I also have a brand new Easy Labeler but will upgrade that soon to a Primera. After this, I may get either a Gosling or the American Canning filler/seamer.

Two more quick questions:
do you have the 110v or the 220v? I assume they make the 220 for the Euro market but I can supply either current.
I see you mentioned elevation. I'm at about 2200' I shouldn't have any issues if you are >6k. I wonder if I should just start with 20ft of hose?

[Blu Dragonfly]

Do you guys with the 4500C have any updated info? I'm going to buy something in Jan but I'm suffering from analysis paralysis.

I have been very happy with our machine. We've had some issues with the fill level controller being a bit wonky at times, all that means when it happens is pay attention to your overflow/outflow tube and shut it off when you see beer come through. Here's what I love about the company though: I called a month or so back got right to tech support about the flow sensor issue, he recommended some different things. I said I'd try them in a week or two (we're on very tight COVID restrictions right now so we've just elected to close until spring) as we weren't busy and I'd get back to him and if those adjustments didn't work they would send me a couple of controllers under warranty. Two days later a mystery package arrives from California, two new flow sensor modules. I had not even made the changes they requested I try nor called with feedback. Apparently, he must have looked our account up and sent us two modules with 2nd day shipping. That's astonishing customer service.

Every batch of beer is going to behave differently when canning, but having a counter pressure filler will help you dial in your fill so much easier with less foam and waste. I would not use an open head filler on this scale. Based on sensory tests, our O2 pick up is very minimal even when I'm running fills and seams on my own.

I give the 4500C a thumbs up.

[AGB]

Do you guys with the 4500C have any updated info? I'm going to buy something in Jan but I'm suffering from analysis paralysis.

[AGB]

Guys, I'm considering a DaniCanFiller. If I do, I'll post my experience. At the moment, the new import tariffs (if they apply) may not be worth it.

[Blu Dragonfly]

First impressions of the 4500C are generally good. Dialing in the system didn't take too much initial thought, but you need to be quick on your feet to respond to changes and have a generally good understanding of tubing, tubing resistance, fill velocity, venting, and studying the clear plastic can they send you to learn your breakout pressure and set an expectation on fill speed. I was pretty intimidated by setting up and getting the first batch done. I don't feel I adapt to "new" very well but time and again, I'm proven wrong so I broke it out tonight, cleaned it, flushed it, sanitized it, and ran a case and a half on one of our slower moving beers with 2.5 atmospheres carbonation.

I laid out a 20' piece of 1/4" ID tubing as I'm at 6400' MSL and a bit OCD about foam breakout. I put a 1/2 BBL in a cooling tub with ice, waited 15 minutes, ran the lines on both sides until they were cold then got after it. The main disappointment is leaky can neck seals. At about 8-10 psi, it would blow around the edges. I set my air compressor output to 30 psi per Xpressfill's specs. I was wondering if 40 psi would be better to seal it up or if I just have defective seals. I sure don't want to blow out the pneumatic rams trying to correct that. I got good fills but losing that seal near the top blew foam past and was cutting off the level sensor just prematurely.

Beer temp was approx. 34F, I pushed the keg with 12psi CO2, same pressure was sent to the unit. I was getting slightly lower fills on the left unit, generally 8-10 ml less than the right side per fill until I dialed in what I needed for topping shots on both sides. That's one aspect I never thought of is needing to mentally re-calibrate with every single beer batch you can.

It's a cool piece of equipment, I hope someone else will please chime in if they've had issues with the can neck seals on theirs. That's probably a very good spare part to have tucked away!

[wlw33]

Oh for sure it's more prevalent in anything hoppy but we have also seen it in other lighter beers.

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Question-are you sanitizing your cans? I've been doing some research and discovered that many sanitizers are strong oxidizers. I've been using Saniclean and allowing to drip dry but do notice some residual liquid in most of the cans.

[Blu Dragonfly]

Our 4500C was delivered on Friday. I was a bit surprised to find that the liquid inlet is 3/8". If I bring over beer in a 1/4" line which seems to be the ticket, this isn't causing breakout going into the larger diameter line at the filler? We will start playing with the machine tomorrow, I'm anxious to get it up and going.